POlish breaking of the codes during 1919-21 war.

[szopen]

http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/ ... 55976.html

It is quite simple news: POlish newspaper just posted news, that POlish cryptographers were able to break Russian codes during 1919-1921 war. Supposedly Polish army could routinely read all bolshevik reports.

One of most reviolutionar statements is:

"It is thanks to this that Polish HQ knew, that in January 1920, when Soviets where making peace proposals, they were in the same time preparing army for invasion of Poland."

I think this will finally solve the question who started it

[Molobo]

Szopen I have this book at home
http://www.wuwr.com.pl/szczeg.asp?num_id=1355

It says the same and was from 2002 But it is good that the knowledge spreads to the public.

[RCW Mark]

Who started it??????

But it started well before 1920 as we all know -- indeed, they could only be making peace proposals because they were at war already. That the Soviets wished to finish the matter off for good and all with the destruction of independent Poland doesn't prove anything about the initial causes, just that they were prepared to expand the fighting. Moreover, that they were planning to invade Poland (or rather what they considered Polish-occupied-Russia) does not mean that they actually would have invaded if Poland had been prepared to meet their demands.

So the news, which is not really news, doesn't solve anything about the causes of the Russian-Polish war. For that we need to look at the events of 1919, not 1920. During that time it was the Poles who were the aggressors -- that is, the ones doing the attacking -- so if you want to prove the Soviets were at fault you will need to show something rather better than the fact that the Russians were prepared to attack Polish forces who were already attacking them.

In my copy of Sikorski's book he suggests that this was hardly a one-sided matter "What is more, the exclusive use of radios during the military operations gave no security. The enemy indeed always finished up finding the key to our code." [from the French version]

Mark

[Molobo]

During that time it was the Poles who were the aggressors

Poles invaded Russia ? Or did Russian bolsheviks invade Ukraine,Belarus and Baltic states ?

[RCW Mark]

There was no "Belarus" state at the time. It was invented by the Soviets, and wasn't very popular. (Which is not to say that there are no Belarussians and that they shouldn't have a country now, just that there is no way the Poles can be said to be invading Belarus in 1919.)

Likewise "Ukraine" was a concept at the time but not a definitive country -- since it didn't have well-defined borders, there was always going to be disputes about where it started and where it ended. Should Galicia be separate? Many Galicians thought so at the time. Even now there are problems with the outer limits of the Ukraine, like the disputed status of the Crimea and the Moldovan border.

What I don't get in the whole squabble about "who started it" is why it has to be one party that takes all the blame? All the parties involved -- and let us not leave out the Ukrainian nationalists and Lithuanians -- suffered from a problem about where the borders should be. The borderlands were ethnically mixed in such a way that no amicable solution was possible. It was inevitable that the countries bordering Poland should disagree strongly in 1919. Given the militaristic outlook of the leaders of both Poland and Russian, it was pretty much inevitable that they should come to blows.

It's all very well to point the finger at the Soviets, but Pilsudski had decided that the Reds were actually less danger than the Whites. Regardless of who was in power in Russia there was going to be a war unless the Poles capitulated completely and accepted extremely restricted borders. They couldn't do that, regardless of reasons of prestige, because a small Poland squeezed between a hostile Germany and Russia could not hope to last long.

The cause of the war should be sought in history, geography and the inability of the victorious Allies to impose sensible settlements in the east, not some juvenile "they started it" vs "no they started it" shouting match.

Mark

[Molobo]

There was no "Belarus" state at the time. It was invented by the Soviets, and wasn't very popular. (Which is not to say that there are no Belarussians and that they shouldn't have a country now, just that there is no way the Poles can be said to be invading Belarus in 1919.)

Belarus didn't exist and was invented by Soviets ? That is wrong.
http://encarta.msn.com/text_761553191___41/Belarus.html

The Russian Revolution of 1917 overthrew the Russian monarchy in February (or March, in the Western, or Gregorian, calendar), and the Belarusian Socialist Hramada (Assembly) called for the reorganization of the Russian Empire as a federation. Later in the same month, all Belarusian political groups united to form the Belarusian National Committee, which was later renamed the Central Rada (Council). In the October (or November) phase of the revolution, the Bolsheviks (militant socialists) seized power in Russia. In Minsk, an All-Belarusian Congress took place in December to establish a democratic, multiparty government, but the Bolsheviks disbanded it by force of arms before it could complete its deliberations. In March 1918 most of Belarus came under German control by the terms of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, which was the result of the Bolsheviks’ negotiations with Germany to end Russia’s involvement in World War I (1914-1918). Belarusian nationalists took the opportunity to declare the creation of the Belarusian People’s (National) Republic, and Germany guaranteed the new state’s independence. The republic proved short-lived, however, because of Germany’s defeat in the war in November

So as you see Belarussians set their own Republic, attempts were however met with resistance by bolsheviks.Polish forces included Belarusian units when resisting Bolshevik invasion.It is a great tragedy and shame of Poland that we didn't press further to regain freedom for our Belarusian and Ukrainian allies.

The cause of the war should be sought in history, geography and the inability of the victorious Allies to impose sensible settlements in the east, not some juvenile "they started it" vs "no they started it" shouting match.

I'm afraid the case is quite clear with Bolsheviks trying to exert control all of former Russian Empire territory end encouraging communist uprisings in Hungary and Germany, openly talking of "spreading the fire of revolution to cities of the world".

[RCW Mark]

I couldn't agree more about the Soviets -- they were indeed trying to spread their doctrine by military force. That makes them a guilty party in the war in my view. But since the Whites were, in Pilsudski's view, worse than the Reds, we have to assume it was more than Bolshevik doctrine that led to the war and we can't just put it all down to the basic evilness of all things Soviet (tempting though that is).

Moreover, by proving the Soviets a guilty party you do not automatically make the Poles innocent -- that will require you to show that the Poles acted with restraint. I personally believe that they chose on certain occasions to use their superior power rather than negotiate when they thought they could get away with it -- though I accept that many Poles at the time tried to disuade Pilsudski from some of his rasher actions -- and that they therefore were not the innocent lambs attacked by the Soviet wolf.

As for the "Belarus", well we will have to disagree. What for example were the "Belarusian political groups"? Prior to 1917 there had been no such groups, since there was no Belarus to have political groups for. So we have a bunch of men in a bunch of recently formed parties who get together and decide that they are the "government". No army, no police, no legal system. Come to that, no international recognition and precious little popular support (hence the lack of army). For me a country requires rather more than a dubious, self-selected, government with no powers and no recognition. In 1917 "goverments" like that sprang up all across the old Russian empire -- do we have to accept that the Crimea and Siberia were separate countries because at that time they had similar hopeful governments? If that was all it took to be a country there would be rather more than the 250 (approx) modern recognised ones.

Mark

[Reigo]

thanks to this that Polish HQ knew, that in January 1920, when Soviets where making peace proposals, they were in the same time preparing army for invasion of Poland

In January the Soviets didn't prepare such an army yet.

There is no proof that the Soviet peace proposals in January-February weren't sincere. However Moscow suspected at the same time that the Poles don't want peace and then indeed in February the Soviets started to concentrate troops for large scale war against Poland.

[Liluh]

Bah, missing the point of that article lads, maybe because it wasn`t emphasized enough in this post.

Battle for Warsaw from that time is called "Miracle over Vistula" in Poland. The writer said there was no actual "miracle", therefore, no blind luck supporting Poles, but it was a very well planned operation which succeded because polish spies made it to break all the codes and therefore, polish HQ knew exactly what bolsheviks were currently doing, knew their positions, knew everything about red soldiers morale and equipment. Therefore they knew where which point is soft and where to put the main assualt breaking bolshevik lines and encircling large groups of the enemy forces.

Personally, I`d agree that confrontation was inevitable, Poles, like all other nations without a country of that time, flew on the wings of freedom and independence and tried to restore old borders, while (super)powers struggled to keep what they had.

[szopen]

Who started it??????]

I thought we already came to conclusions that it were Soviets? After all, from formal point of view, it was Soviets who first attacked POlish troops, not the other way around? Or you conside Polish self-defense units, formed by local Polish minority, aggressors?

[RCW Mark]

If by "we" you mean many of the Polish list members, then yes -- "we" have already decided it was the Soviets. But then that seems to usually be a matter of principle for which supporting examples are shown repeatedly and counter-examples are ignored.

Personally, I have no truck for the "they attacked first" line, since all through 1919 the Poles were pushing East, taking advantage of Soviet weakness, regardless of who fired the first bullet in 1918. Similarly the Poles took advantage of Lithuanian weakness (and it sure wasn't the Lithuanians who started that one) and Ukrainian weakness. That spoils any "self-defence" argument in my book (although it is clear that even at the time some Poles were opposed to this policy).

I prefer to think of the war as an inevitable clash of opposing values fighting over poorly defined borderlands. Which is not to say that I am not very glad that the Poles stopped the Bolsheviks. You can be pro-Polish without having to insist that they were perfect.

Mark

[szopen]

If by "we" you mean many of the Polish list members, then yes -- "we" have already decided it was the Soviets. But then that seems to usually be a matter of principle for which supporting examples are shown repeatedly and counter-examples are ignored.

No, by "we" I mean exactly YOU and me. I've posted something in thread about civil war, which had no reply, so I assumed you had agreed with me.

(EDIT: I just check the relevant thread and I see that I confused you with Reigo, You were replying later, and that's probably i mixed you too. Accept my apologise and read the thread).

The chronology is: Local bolsheviks took over Vilnius (but were not part of Red Army), taking local Polish self-defense units, which was preparing to do the same, with hands in chamber-pot). Local self-defense unit (which was not invading or pushing east, since it was composed from people who lived there) was incorporated into POlish army and very next day pushed bolsheviks out of city. This formally wasn't attack on soviets, since bolsheviks were not part of Red army, but tried to form Lithuanian republic or something. Now, few days later Red Army ATTACKED Polish self-defense units.

So, formally it was RED ARMY which attacked first, since a) bolshevik units formed in VIlnius were not part of Red Army b) Polish self-defense units FORMALLY were part of Polish army. Poles were not pushing east in 1918, since they LIVED there. It's hard to accuse people living in Vilnius to INVADE the city.

[szopen]

Personally, I have no truck for the "they attacked first" line, since all through 1919 the Poles were pushing East, taking advantage of Soviet weakness,
Mark

Similarly, you get the other way around. It was soviets which pushed west, taking advantage of weakness of Polish self-defense units. Polish COUNTER-offensive pushed them back in 1919.

[RCW Mark]

Yes but a counter-offensive that went all the way to Daugavpils (Dvinsk) !!!! I know they gave Daugavpils city to the Latvians, but the Polish army remained fairly close, in an area that would struggle under anyone's description to be classified as Polish.

And another "counter-offensive" in the Ukraine that eventually, in 1920, ended up in Kiev !!!! The Poles installing a puppet regime in Kiev is no more classy than when the Germans or Soviets did it -- it was military cynicism.

If the counter-offensives had stopped when a reasonable line had been reached, then I would take your point. But the Poles, or rather Pilsudski, insisted on pushing on so far that even the French (not notorious for liking the Soviets) started to dispair about their unreasonableness.

The Poles in 1919 and 1920 chose to take the military advantages offered in their struggle with the Soviets rather than the moral ones. Fair enough, it was their country and lives at stake and the end result was good, but one cannot then go back and claim the moral high ground as well.

Mark

[Musashi]

Yes but a counter-offensive that went all the way to Daugavpils (Dvinsk) !!!! I know they gave Daugavpils city to the Latvians, but the Polish army remained fairly close, in an area that would struggle under anyone's description to be classified as Polish.

The Latvians requested Pilsudski to get rid of Soviets from Daugavpils and the Polish troops liberated this city. It is inhabited by Latvians, so they have the right to decide about it.