A New Look at General Sikorski's Death:

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wm
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Re: A New Look at General Sikorski's Death:

Post by wm » 09 Oct 2012 23:07

The plutonowy rank is below Sergeant, a plutonowy is usually a squad leader.

youngbruno
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Re: A New Look at General Sikorski's Death:

Post by youngbruno » 10 Oct 2012 00:22

I am always one to get things right the position of 'Plutowny' according to Wikipedia is its conversion to english is similar to Master Corporal.
I have no problems with that ....you cant change history!

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Re: A New Look at General Sikorski's Death:

Post by wm » 19 Oct 2012 21:27

The fact is there were no NCOs with Sikorsky in Gibraltar. Even his adjutants had at least the rank of colonel.

As to the rag business, checks for freedom of movement of flight control surfaces are a must on any plane.
The Liberator's pre-flight check off list of required checking the control surfaces for freedom and direction after starting the engines and shortly before takeoff.
I think that running around a Liberator with its four 3.5 m in diameter propellers at full speed at night is not something even a very dedicated to the cause ninja would attempt lightly.

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Re: A New Look at General Sikorski's Death:

Post by ROLAND1369 » 21 Oct 2012 14:43

While such preflight checks are required on aircraft the fact remains that they are not always done. There is at least one case of F 8 Crusader aircraft taking off with their wings folded and at least one confirmed incident that I know of with the a C47 taking off with the elevator ground locks still in place. Suprising they managed to safely land both aircraft.

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Re: A New Look at General Sikorski's Death:

Post by youngbruno » 25 Oct 2012 07:44

Yes we know my father stated he was K.O.P. Plutowny (Platoon Leader) in 1939.
However at the end of the day we really don't as yet what his rank really was when he was over at North Africa or Gibraltar. I have since found out he would be under the British Army records and will apply to MOD to establish 1. him being there 2. his rank / etc.
I do have proof that he even when captured in Oct. 1939 changed his birthdate and rank when the Wehrmacht caught him and he is actually on www.youtube under Polish POW 1939 at 1 min into the video.
Unfortunately my father being Polish in the 24 years I knew him - he never told a joke or tried to 'pull my leg' he was a simple straight down the line guy and exageration was not one of his qualities....it might be more my thing but certainly not his.

As for the positioning of the 'Rag' being mentioned too high for someone to shove a 'rag' into the wing.
Thats all very well but....a big but if its from your 'own kind' and you were supposed to be there in the first place , in the dark even with a ladder......the game is over.
One must realise history can't be changed , its a fact Sikorskis plane did crash, no one apart from my father has come up with the correct answer, and my father told me this back in march 1984 at a time I did not even know who General Sikorski was. (dad died straight after this).

Being Australian or an Ozzie we dont tend to muck around with this sort of thing and at the moment it makes all sense to me.
Cheers

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Re: A New Look at General Sikorski's Death:

Post by henryk » 02 Jan 2014 20:32

http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/15746 ... [quote]'No evidence' WWII leader murdered
PR dla Zagranicy Nick Hodge 31.12.2013 11:31
A five-year investigation into the death of Polish World War II leader General Wladyslaw Sikorski has found no evidence to support conspiracy theories that he was murdered.
General Sikorski (c). Photo: wikipedia
The investigation, which was carried out by the state-backed Institute of National Remembrance (IPN), explored the circumstances of Sikorski's doomed flight from Gibraltar to London on 4 July 1943. IPN has found no proof that Poland's wartime prime minister was either murdered prior to the flight, or that the plane crash itself was caused by sabotage. In a statement released on Monday, IPN concluded that there is “no reasonable doubt” in the question of his boarding the plane alive.

In 2008, at the beginning of the investigation, Sikorski's remains were exhumed, but no forensic evidence was found to suggest he had been murdered prior to the flight. Likewise, regarding the reasons for the crash, IPN says its findings are consistent with the original British investigation of 1943, which concluded that the Liberator plane's flight controls jammed. IPN noted that its investigation found “insufficient evidence either to confirm or to rule out” theories that the jamming of the controls was caused by sabotage. The investigation included interviews with the last surviving witnesses of the disaster, a radio operator and a diver, both British.

Conspiracy theories Over the years, fingers have been pointed at Russian, British and Polish alleged culprits. The crash occurred shortly after Moscow broke off relations with the Polish-government-in-exile in London. General Sikorski had called for a Red Cross investigation into the Katyn Massacre, after the Nazis unearthed bodies of thousands of Poles who appeared to be officers who had gone missing while in Soviet captivity. Stalin had pushed for Poland and his Western allies to accept that the killings of the Polish officers were carried out by the Germans (Moscow admitted guilt in 1990). Writing in his diary shortly after the crash, Polish ambassador in the UK Edward Raczynski reflected that “this catastrophe, coming at a turning-point in the war, when the Big Three meeting is apparently at hand, and when vital decisions require to be taken in consultation with us – is a bewildering visitation of Providence; so much so, that Poles everywhere suspect the hand, not of Providence, but of a felonious enemy.”

Besides the theory that Moscow had had Sikorski eliminated, there have also been claims that the British carried out the alleged crime, so as to placate their Russian allies. Another theory stresses tensions between Sikorski and General Wladyslaw Anders, arguing that Sikorski was killed by a clique of Polish officers loyal to Anders. All eleven passengers died. These included two British MPs, one of whom was Victor Cazalet, a liaison officer to Sikorski and godfather to Winston Churchill's daughter. Sikorski's own daughter was among the dead. Her body was never recovered and claims later surfaced that she had been seen in a Soviet forced labour camp many years later. IPN stressed yesterday that it had found no evidence to confirm Soviet involvement in the Gibraltar tragedy. The pilot managed to eject himself from the cockpit, and he was the sole survivor, albeit with multiple injuries. (nh) Source: IPN, PAP - [/quote]
]'No evidence' WWII leader murdered
but
“insufficient evidence either to confirm or to rule out” theories that the jamming of the controls was caused by sabotage.

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Re: A New Look at General Sikorski's Death:

Post by youngbruno » 27 Mar 2017 13:36

[quote="youngbruno"]Yes we know my father stated he was K.O.P. Plutowny (Platoon Leader) in 1939.
However at the end of the day we really don't as yet what his rank really was when he was over at North Africa or Gibraltar. I have since found out he would be under the British Army records and will apply to MOD to establish 1. him being there 2. his rank / etc.
I do have proof that he even when captured in Oct. 1939 changed his birthdate and rank when the Wehrmacht caught him and he is actually on http://www.youtube under Polish POW 1939 at 1 min into the video.
Unfortunately my father being Polish in the 24 years I knew him - he never told a joke or tried to 'pull my leg' he was a simple straight down the line guy and exageration was not one of his qualities....it might be more my thing but certainly not.

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Re: A New Look at General Sikorski's Death:

Post by youngbruno » 27 Mar 2017 13:40

Error occurred

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Re: A New Look at General Sikorski's Death:

Post by RG » 30 Mar 2017 11:34

Ponury wrote:Maybe the plane was loaded with contraband goods such as diamonds, alcohol? The General did not need to know about it.

C
I read somewhere such an explanation:
The Sikorski's plane had status VIP and therefore was not subject of custom control so was full of contraband (alcohol foremost) that there was even no place for regular cargo. That is way bag with letters were put to the carriage gondola and fell out during the take off. This is a simple explanation for theoretically strange finding on the airfield which supporters of conspiracy theory give as a proof of fight aboard of the plane. For the plane the additional weight was even more dangerous because it could lose the balance (event not uncommon even nowadays). Sorry I cannot remember when I read it and what is a credibility of this claim, but maybe we do not need to search evil conspirators?

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Re: A New Look at General Sikorski's Death:

Post by wm » 22 Apr 2017 11:19

youngbruno wrote:I do have proof that he even when captured in Oct. 1939 changed his birthdate and rank when the Wehrmacht caught him
Why he did that? It though there was nothing to be gained by doing that.

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Re: A New Look at General Sikorski's Death:

Post by youngbruno » 26 May 2017 06:17

Hi
I have just recovered from heart surgery number xxx, my manuscript has been completed awaiting someone to sponsor or publisher.
You know what I have written, now for some home truths, after escaping Stalag VBs placement of him into a Third Reich Food production he kills the two tormenting Managers and escapes using his Monopoly Game map! Injured and suffering Frontal Lobe Damage he searchs for people to help with him kill the Nazis and Russians. Finds a group called ZJ and he calls himself a Salamander in August 1942 but before they join with the NSZ to make NSZ-ZJ he is trained in Sabotage, bomb making, and intelligence reporting, this group does not listen to the A.K. or The Underground Government and they apparently disliked Sikorski and set him onto him.
It takes months and before he takes off the ZJ have a printing department and change his name and rank with documents made in good old Poland!
He fights in Operation Vulcan and we obviously win then resumes his target. He was a KOP Officer previously and is 6foot 1inch tall. for only a few months he is involved in Sikorskis protection detail. He befriends Major Anthony Quayle and may I say this is why the british will not release data as he was SOE. Sikorski befriended the Governor of Gibraltar as did Dad befriended the Assistant i.e. Tony as he called him.
Yet the signal was given to him to perform the sabotage by 3 x songs in a row played on the radio.
Thats it! He was sad for decades that they made him kill him.

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Re: A New Look at General Sikorski's Death:

Post by youngbruno » 27 May 2017 02:11

Wm
Sorry missed your question and its simple he was KOP Officer and new that just before he was captured russia stepped in and found out he would be executed for this reason. So he changed his clothes when he found new army clothes piled up somewhere and changed his...unfortunately his clothes were way too big. He knew that if you were not KOP and just a normal army sergeant or less the germans kept you ...but if an officer onwards wlthe germans passed them straight over to the russians and he would be in the KATYN graveyard as his paperwork ended up (long story). Dont believe me why not take a look at his oversized cothing as he was captured on youtube video! Email me and ill send you the link.

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Re: A New Look at General Sikorski's Death:

Post by Sid Guttridge » 27 May 2017 06:41

Hi henryk,

I am not sure why you highlight "insufficient evidence either to confirm or rule out" theories that the jamming of the controls was cauised by sabotage."

There is insuffient evidence either to confirm or rule out an infinite number of alternative explanations, but this doesn't mean a single one of them has any weight.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Sometimes an accident is just an accident.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: A New Look at General Sikorski's Death:

Post by youngbruno » 27 May 2017 10:29

Sorry Sid no one ever touched Sikorski just the plane. Also he said "did you know they had a guard in the plane when it was done....how could you hear it anyway".
Difference here is i have an indepth book on how it happened witnesses and of course tons of forged documents as every document i have was forged. Even our entry to Australia. Even when he married my mum Geneve Convention records said that his real info does not match up. I have these docs.
Yes people know something was wrong even after investgations couldnt work it out. Thats because he was a skilled sabotour job.

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Re: A New Look at General Sikorski's Death:

Post by henryk » 27 May 2017 18:28

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi henryk,

I am not sure why you highlight "insufficient evidence either to confirm or rule out" theories that the jamming of the controls was cauised by sabotage."

There is insuffient evidence either to confirm or rule out an infinite number of alternative explanations, but this doesn't mean a single one of them has any weight.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Sometimes an accident is just an accident.

Cheers,

Sid.
I interpret the information to mean some evidence had been found specifically related to jamming of the controls, but it was not conclusive.

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