Information about Brandt 120mm mortars?

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stg 44
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Information about Brandt 120mm mortars?

Postby stg 44 » 12 Sep 2017 15:34

Does anyone have any info or links that describe the French 120mm mortars and their technical features? I understand there were two versions, a lighter infantry version and a heavier, longer range artillery version. What were the differences of the two models?

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Re: Information about Brandt 120mm mortars?

Postby Kelvin » 13 Sep 2017 08:18

French Army had 120mm mortar in world war two ? :?

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Re: Information about Brandt 120mm mortars?

Postby stg 44 » 13 Sep 2017 15:03

Kelvin wrote:French Army had 120mm mortar in world war two ? :?

Yep, everyone else based their designs off of the original French version.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1938_mortar
The Soviet M1938 120-millimeter mortar was an improved version (its base-plate was changed from square to round form, etc.) of the 120 mm mortier Brandt mle 1935, which was imported to the USSR before the capitulation of France in 1940.


Image

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Re: Information about Brandt 120mm mortars?

Postby Yoozername » 13 Sep 2017 15:57

Post by Kelvin » 13 Sep 2017 08:18

French Army had 120mm mortar in world war two ? :?


Not really


/viewtopic.php?t=35510

1) Brandt 120 mm mortar Mle 1935 :
This heavy mortar had been adopted by the French Army and a squad of 2 mortars should have been issued in each regiment in 1940 according to Ferrrard's book. This mortar was also manufactured in Russia under the
name "120mm Polkovoy Minomyot Obr.1938g". The Russians used it extensively and it has later been copied by the germans for their "120 mm Granatewerfer 1942".
Brandt sold the Kuomintang regime two 120mm mortars and 275 rounds of ammunition in 1938, and these were delivered in March 1939 via Rangoon and the Burma Road. With the fall of France further purchases became impossible and the weapons were turned over to the 21st Arsenal for reverse-engineering. In the meantime, the 50th Arsenal was working on their own design and a competition between the two was held in 1943/44. The 21st Arsenal (Brandt-derived) mortar was chosen in 1944 (hence the designation 33 = 33rd year of the Republic), amid allegations of skullduggery raised by the 50th Arsenal, who claimed that the 21st had intercepted shipments of materials from the US intended for them. In any event, none were actually built until 1945. Production appears to have ceased around 1946, with probably about a hundred built.
The main differences between the Brandt version delivered to China (Brandt developed a bewildering array of 120mm designs during the 1930s) and the Type 33 was that the 21st Arsenal shorted the tube slightly to reduce weight and replaced the spring-carried pneumatic tires with simple wooden spoke wheels on an unsprung axle.
Although some photos can be find the 120mm mortars were probably not
issued to the French army before the armistice. They were just one of the list of excellent weapons developed in the 1920's and 30's but not
prioritised for early production.

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Re: Information about Brandt 120mm mortars?

Postby Ironmachine » 13 Sep 2017 17:19

More information from http://atf40.forumculture.net/t5579-mortier-brandt-de-120mm-tr

la société Brandt a développé un mortier de 120 mm Tracté par chenillette dans les années 39-40. Ce mortier pouvait être indifféremment tiré par des chevaux, décomposé en fardeaux portés sur bâts, ou remorqué derrière une auto de tourisme, une autochenille ou une chenillette.
Il pesait 800 kg, tirait à 7200 mètres un projectile de 17 kg chargé de 4275 g d'explosif. Il fût construit en série.


merci pour cette réponse, la production en série était déjà en cours en avril 1940.


Il est vrai que tout a été chamboulé avec la déclaration de guerre, merci de me préciser cette mise en production, du reste confirmée pas SF dans son dernier ouvrage ou il précise que chaque Ri devait en être équipé à raison de deux pièces à l'échelon de la Cie régimentaire d'engins, en remplacement des mortiers de 81mm.


It seems the Soviets obtained this mortar via Finland:
Accord commercial, via la Finlande où la société Tampella avait une licence pour les mortiers Brandt.
L'accord entre Brandt et Tampella était un peu particulier en ce sens que Tampella était à la fois fabricant sous licence, et reversait à ce titre 8% de royalties à Brandt pour ses ventes à l'armée finnoise, ET sous-traitant de Brandt pour les ventes à l'étranger, où les mortiers Tampella étaient vendus comme mortiers Brandt. Lorsque la guerre d'hiver démarra des mortiers Brandt fabriqués pour l'export par Tampella furent réquisitionnés par l'armée finlandaise ce qui amena un litige commercial entre les deux sociétés qui allait durer jusqu'en mai 1942.
Les caractéristiques pour le mortier lisse à grande puissance Tampella (Brandt) modèle 1935 de 120 mm sont les suivantes:
Masse en ordre de tir : 240 kg se décomposant en:
- tube: 85 kg;
- plaque de base: 90 kg;
- affût support: 65 kg.
Masse en ordre de route (berceau support à roues): 350 kg
Masse de l'avant-train portant 12 coups complets: 300 kg
Masse du caisson à munitions portant 16 coups complets: 350 kg

Le mortier peut être à traction automobile ou hippomobile.

Portée: + 7.000 m
Masse du projectile: 15 kg (acier chargé de 4 kg de trotyle, fonte chargé de 2 kg de trotyle); 13 kg (acier "extra dur" chargé de 2 kg de trotyle)
Cadence de tir: 6 à 12 coups/mn

Il existait deux variantes du mortiers de 120 mm Brandt, celle produite par Tampella, et ultérieurement copiée par les Soviétiques était la plus simple, destinée à l'infanterie, alors que la variante plus lourde aurait été plus spécifiquement conçue pour l'artillerie.

Les Finlandais vont apporter des modifications au modèle original ce qui va mener au Tampella 120 Krh/35/39 adopté par l'armée Finnoise sous la désignation de 120 Krh/40 et vendu à la Suède qui le désignera 120 mm GrK m/41. Cette variante se caractérisait par rapport au modèle Brandt d'origine par une masse plus faible, une plaque de base améliorée et un système de transport modifié.

[...]

L'accord entre Brandt et Tampella date de 1934. Le rapprochement franco-Soviétique s'est concrétisé par la signature d'un pacte de non-agression le 29 novembre 1932.Un attaché militaire français, le colonel Mendras, est nommé à Moscou le 2 mars 1933 suivi de discussions sur un pacte bilatéral franco-soviétique d'assistance mutuelle en 1934 également.

Il y a eu un transfert de technologie via la Finlande, le mortier de 120 modèle 1938 étant une copie, sans licence mais autorisée, du mortier de 120 modèle 1935 français construit en Finlande par Tampella.

Le 120 Krh/40 finlandais présentait de notables améliorations par rapport au modèle 1935 français d'origine et au modèle 1938 soviétique.

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Re: Information about Brandt 120mm mortars?

Postby stg 44 » 13 Sep 2017 18:24

Ironmachine wrote:More information from http://atf40.forumculture.net/t5579-mortier-brandt-de-120mm-tr

la société Brandt a développé un mortier de 120 mm Tracté par chenillette dans les années 39-40. Ce mortier pouvait être indifféremment tiré par des chevaux, décomposé en fardeaux portés sur bâts, ou remorqué derrière une auto de tourisme, une autochenille ou une chenillette.
Il pesait 800 kg, tirait à 7200 mètres un projectile de 17 kg chargé de 4275 g d'explosif. Il fût construit en série.


merci pour cette réponse, la production en série était déjà en cours en avril 1940.


Il est vrai que tout a été chamboulé avec la déclaration de guerre, merci de me préciser cette mise en production, du reste confirmée pas SF dans son dernier ouvrage ou il précise que chaque Ri devait en être équipé à raison de deux pièces à l'échelon de la Cie régimentaire d'engins, en remplacement des mortiers de 81mm.


It seems the Soviets obtained this mortar via Finland:
Accord commercial, via la Finlande où la société Tampella avait une licence pour les mortiers Brandt.
L'accord entre Brandt et Tampella était un peu particulier en ce sens que Tampella était à la fois fabricant sous licence, et reversait à ce titre 8% de royalties à Brandt pour ses ventes à l'armée finnoise, ET sous-traitant de Brandt pour les ventes à l'étranger, où les mortiers Tampella étaient vendus comme mortiers Brandt. Lorsque la guerre d'hiver démarra des mortiers Brandt fabriqués pour l'export par Tampella furent réquisitionnés par l'armée finlandaise ce qui amena un litige commercial entre les deux sociétés qui allait durer jusqu'en mai 1942.
Les caractéristiques pour le mortier lisse à grande puissance Tampella (Brandt) modèle 1935 de 120 mm sont les suivantes:
Masse en ordre de tir : 240 kg se décomposant en:
- tube: 85 kg;
- plaque de base: 90 kg;
- affût support: 65 kg.
Masse en ordre de route (berceau support à roues): 350 kg
Masse de l'avant-train portant 12 coups complets: 300 kg
Masse du caisson à munitions portant 16 coups complets: 350 kg

Le mortier peut être à traction automobile ou hippomobile.

Portée: + 7.000 m
Masse du projectile: 15 kg (acier chargé de 4 kg de trotyle, fonte chargé de 2 kg de trotyle); 13 kg (acier "extra dur" chargé de 2 kg de trotyle)
Cadence de tir: 6 à 12 coups/mn

Il existait deux variantes du mortiers de 120 mm Brandt, celle produite par Tampella, et ultérieurement copiée par les Soviétiques était la plus simple, destinée à l'infanterie, alors que la variante plus lourde aurait été plus spécifiquement conçue pour l'artillerie.

Les Finlandais vont apporter des modifications au modèle original ce qui va mener au Tampella 120 Krh/35/39 adopté par l'armée Finnoise sous la désignation de 120 Krh/40 et vendu à la Suède qui le désignera 120 mm GrK m/41. Cette variante se caractérisait par rapport au modèle Brandt d'origine par une masse plus faible, une plaque de base améliorée et un système de transport modifié.

[...]

L'accord entre Brandt et Tampella date de 1934. Le rapprochement franco-Soviétique s'est concrétisé par la signature d'un pacte de non-agression le 29 novembre 1932.Un attaché militaire français, le colonel Mendras, est nommé à Moscou le 2 mars 1933 suivi de discussions sur un pacte bilatéral franco-soviétique d'assistance mutuelle en 1934 également.

Il y a eu un transfert de technologie via la Finlande, le mortier de 120 modèle 1938 étant une copie, sans licence mais autorisée, du mortier de 120 modèle 1935 français construit en Finlande par Tampella.

Le 120 Krh/40 finlandais présentait de notables améliorations par rapport au modèle 1935 français d'origine et au modèle 1938 soviétique.


Thanks!

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Re: Information about Brandt 120mm mortars?

Postby Yoozername » 14 Sep 2017 04:20

Not sure it all squares up against this info...

http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/MORTARS6.htm

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Re: Information about Brandt 120mm mortars?

Postby Ironmachine » 14 Sep 2017 06:07

Something more (from https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?p=594575)
Mortier Brandt de 120mm Mle1935
This heavy mortar had been adopted by the French Army and a squad of 2 mortars should have been issued in each regiment in 1940 but very few had been delivered before the armistice and the weapon was not really issued.
Type : Heavy mortar
Crew : 1 NCO + 6 men (+ 1 driver)
Caliber : 120mm
ROF : 10-12 rpm
Ammunitions :
HE shell
Shell weight : 16.4 kg
Maximum range : 7000 m

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Re: Information about Brandt 120mm mortars?

Postby Ironmachine » 14 Sep 2017 06:17

And http://www.dws-xip.pl/encyklopedia/moz120mm35-fr/, in Polish but the translation obtained with online translator is quite good.

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Re: Information about Brandt 120mm mortars?

Postby Yoozername » 14 Sep 2017 15:37

I would wonder why the Germans would not be aware of the French 120mm IF it was really deployed in any real numbers. That is, it seems they encountered this class of weapon when invading the Soviet Union. The armistice between Germany and France would have given the Germans time before the invasion of Russia.

I also find it hard to believe the Soviets somehow got this from Finland. i think anyone would say that the Soviets went for this in numbers before anyone else. The Finns seemed to have experience on the receiving end of the Soviet weapons but did not share the info with the Germans. The Finns put their design into production after meeting the Soviet M38.

The Romanians also made a copy of this much like the Germans.

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Re: Information about Brandt 120mm mortars?

Postby stg 44 » 14 Sep 2017 15:53

Yoozername wrote:I would wonder why the Germans would not be aware of the French 120mm IF it was really deployed in any real numbers. That is, it seems they encountered this class of weapon when invading the Soviet Union. The armistice between Germany and France would have given the Germans time before the invasion of Russia.

I also find it hard to believe the Soviets somehow got this from Finland. i think anyone would say that the Soviets went for this in numbers before anyone else. The Finns seemed to have experience on the receiving end of the Soviet weapons but did not share the info with the Germans. The Finns put their design into production after meeting the Soviet M38.

The Romanians also made a copy of this much like the Germans.

It took experiencing their effect to get the Germans to appreciate the class of weapon. The French apparently didn't field them in number during the 1940 campaign, so there was little experience with the efficacy until the Russian campaign. Plus they already had the 105mm chemical mortar; like the US they thought that was enough. Really outside the Soviets and Finns no one fielded those sorts of heavy mortars until they experienced them (I assume the Japanese heavies didn't come about until after they fought the Soviets and experienced them, I may be wrong), not even the French for whom Brandt developed the mortar.

The Finns actually licensed the 120mm mortar from Brandt according to the French forum post about these mortars and the website about Finnish weapons. Not sure how they came to the USSR, but somehow they got the technology from the French.

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Re: Information about Brandt 120mm mortars?

Postby Yoozername » 14 Sep 2017 19:06

The way it works is that Brandt is an arms dealer. They sell arms and were offering the sales to countries (perhaps with the government's permission). In other words, it was no big secret that people were buying 60mm/81mm/120mm designs or weapons from Brandt. The Germans must have been aware of this and the company itself and even the designs. After the Armistice, the Germans did not have a hard time finding all the arms manufacturers in France along with all the war booty. Since the weapon or ammunition were not in full scale production, it was probably viewed as not worth it.

An aspect that the 'efficiency' speculation is not taking into account is that the Germans captured not only many Soviet 120mm mortars, but vast quantities of ammunition. I suppose it is worth investigating if the Germans captured an actual manufacturing facility for the weapon or the ammunition. It would be a no-brainer to use the weapons/ammunition and even 'owning' it by designing it for German methods/use. Since the Germans had Brandt in their clutches, they may have looked at the designs also.

I believe the Finns had the initial experience of being hammered by the weapon. Prompting them to hurry up, and open the purse, and produce their own 120mm weapons/ammunition that they dragged their feet on. They even made them for Sweden so they could get raw materials that they couldn't pay for.

I doubt that the Soviets got the plans/design/patents/etc. from the Finns.

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Re: Information about Brandt 120mm mortars?

Postby Ironmachine » 14 Sep 2017 19:37

stg 44 wrote:Really outside the Soviets and Finns no one fielded those sorts of heavy mortars until they experienced them (I assume the Japanese heavies didn't come about until after they fought the Soviets and experienced them, I may be wrong), not even the French for whom Brandt developed the mortar.

Well, for what it's worth Spain did design and build a 120mm mortar in 1939, without having experienced them.

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Re: Information about Brandt 120mm mortars?

Postby stg 44 » 14 Sep 2017 20:30

Ironmachine wrote:
stg 44 wrote:Really outside the Soviets and Finns no one fielded those sorts of heavy mortars until they experienced them (I assume the Japanese heavies didn't come about until after they fought the Soviets and experienced them, I may be wrong), not even the French for whom Brandt developed the mortar.

Well, for what it's worth Spain did design and build a 120mm mortar in 1939, without having experienced them.

This one?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAT-120
If so that's from the 1980s...which draws on the experience of everyone else adopting them.

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Re: Information about Brandt 120mm mortars?

Postby Yoozername » 14 Sep 2017 22:58

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=182486&start=15

Maybe a quick search here is better than your Wiki attempts? You are referencing a munition, not even a mortar...?


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