About Alpine division organization 1940

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Kelvin
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About Alpine division organization 1940

#1

Post by Kelvin » 18 Jan 2018, 08:27

French had eight Alpine divisons in May 1940. Normally DI is basic elements is RI or DBCP while main infantry body of Alpine division was RIA or DBCA. Alpine division had more manpower than normal DI as manpower is needed in mountain terrain to carry equipment by yourself instead of horses and each battalion of RIA or DBCA had a ski scout platoon with 41 men. Anyone can tell me apart from this, any differnce between in their infantry element between DI and DIA ? Thank

And 40e DI had two DBCA and 3. Legere division main infantry elements were two DBCA and even 44e DI had two DBCA, one from 29e Alpine division and one is 173rd Alpine Demibrigade in Corsica. Are they Alpine divisions in actual ? Thank



Of Course, DIA used ligher or pack guns for mountain terrain.

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Loïc
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Re: About Alpine division organization 1940

#2

Post by Loïc » 20 Jan 2018, 04:06

hello Kelvin

actually there were 7, three actives, two serie A reserve (younger reservists), two serie B reserve (older reservists) divisions
27e and 28e from XIVth region of Lyon - Dauphiné Savoy northern Alpes more 64e
29e and 30e from XVth region of Marseille - Provence southern Alpes more 65e
the 31e from XVIth region of Montpellier - Languedoc eastern Pyrénées converted in a mountain division in the interwars

the Alpine divisions, at least the 4 first Divisions of XIVth and XVth regions had more manpower but because intially they were still with the old traditionnal quarternary system (2 brigades x 2 regiments/half-brigades) instead of the ternary adopted since the Great War (divisionnal infantry at 3 regiments)

when the initial 6th Army (of the Alps) was greatly reduced during the autunm 1939 there were various changes

the 8 brigades were disbanded and so the 4 divisions lost their fourth infantry unit, reduced to a ternary divisionnal infantry they were with less manpower than the others "north east" type Infantry Division even if the divisionnal infantry kept still more manpower than the north-east type divisionnal infantry, a mountain unit needing more animals and so more men to handle them

an Alpine Division it is not only alpine infantry units but also mountain artillery, both serie B divisions didn't have such artillery

the 27e and 30e were adapted to the north-east theater, and their mountain artillery was exchanged with field artillery of both 64e and 65e DI

the 3e DLI was with two RIA (140e and 141e) instead of DBCA it was the third division raised for Norway, so considered to be able to fight in a winter war theater, as artillery the 3 divisions having only each a 75mm towed all-terrain colonial group

the short-lived 40e DI raised in emergency due circumstances came from these divisions for Norway (1st and 2nd Light Divisions of Chasseurs) but its artillery also wasn't at all mountain, the same with the 44e DI raised three months before where its infantry wasn't entirely alpine (237e then 6e RI)


Kelvin
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Re: About Alpine division organization 1940

#3

Post by Kelvin » 20 Jan 2018, 11:54

Loïc wrote:hello Kelvin

actually there were 7, three actives, two serie A reserve (younger reservists), two serie B reserve (older reservists) divisions
27e and 28e from XIVth region of Lyon - Dauphiné Savoy northern Alpes more 64e
29e and 30e from XVth region of Marseille - Provence southern Alpes more 65e
the 31e from XVIth region of Montpellier - Languedoc eastern Pyrénées converted in a mountain division in the interwars

the Alpine divisions, at least the 4 first Divisions of XIVth and XVth regions had more manpower but because intially they were still with the old traditionnal quarternary system (2 brigades x 2 regiments/half-brigades) instead of the ternary adopted since the Great War (divisionnal infantry at 3 regiments)

when the initial 6th Army (of the Alps) was greatly reduced during the autunm 1939 there were various changes

the 8 brigades were disbanded and so the 4 divisions lost their fourth infantry unit, reduced to a ternary divisionnal infantry they were with less manpower than the others "north east" type Infantry Division even if the divisionnal infantry kept still more manpower than the north-east type divisionnal infantry, a mountain unit needing more animals and so more men to handle them

an Alpine Division it is not only alpine infantry units but also mountain artillery, both serie B divisions didn't have such artillery

the 27e and 30e were adapted to the north-east theater, and their mountain artillery was exchanged with field artillery of both 64e and 65e DI

the 3e DLI was with two RIA (140e and 141e) instead of DBCA it was the third division raised for Norway, so considered to be able to fight in a winter war theater, as artillery the 3 divisions having only each a 75mm towed all-terrain colonial group

the short-lived 40e DI raised in emergency due circumstances came from these divisions for Norway (1st and 2nd Light Divisions of Chasseurs) but its artillery also wasn't at all mountain, the same with the 44e DI raised three months before where its infantry wasn't entirely alpine (237e then 6e RI)

Hello, Loic, thank so much for your detailed information, very helpful. And I would like to ask 64 and 65.Alpine divisions had mixed 47mm/75mm BDAC, I suppose it is four 47mm and four 75 mm guns, is it correct ? Thank.

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Loïc
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Re: About Alpine division organization 1940

#4

Post by Loïc » 21 Jan 2018, 03:31

hello
actually Lee Sharp's Volume IV gives two 75mm and four 47mm for the mixed type of the BDAC

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Re: About Alpine division organization 1940

#5

Post by Kelvin » 22 Jan 2018, 07:39

Hi, Loic, thank for your information.

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Re: About Alpine division organization 1940

#6

Post by Kelvin » 02 Sep 2018, 13:02

Hi, Loic, any different in so called High Mountain unit in French Army ? I see 199e BAF of 230e DBAF was considered a hight mountain unit which had four 41-men ski scout platoon, but what else on their difference with other units ? Thank

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Re: 199e BCHM

#7

Post by Loïc » 02 Sep 2018, 15:19

hello Kelvin

it was because the 199e BCHM was recruited from Mont Blanc area High Mountain specialists cadres and reservists (Guides de Chamonix, High Mountain Military Scholl EHM raised in 1932...)
https://www.bleujonquille.fr/documents/ ... _80ans.pdf
199E.PNG

the expeditionnary Brigade raised for Finland with 6 Alpine Chasseurs Battalions was also named «High Mountain Brigade»

Regards
Loïc L.

Kelvin
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Re: About Alpine division organization 1940

#8

Post by Kelvin » 02 Sep 2018, 15:34

Hi, Loic, thank so much for your help.

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