where the false idea that vichy france wanted to protect the jews come from?

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aurelien wolff
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where the false idea that vichy france wanted to protect the jews come from?

Post by aurelien wolff » 19 Feb 2022 22:31

Beside from polemist such as zemmour or vichy apologist who try to make the regime more sympathetic(it doesn't, you still got pierre laval speech "je souhaite la victoire de l'allemagne", the STO,the crime against free french, the participation in the holocaust with the deportation of foreign jews, the denaturalisation...), people using number of surviving french jews wrongly(more survivor amongs french jews doesn't show the vichy government had the intention to protect them), I wonder what's the origin of the myth.
Thanks for your answers!

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Re: where the false idea that vichy france wanted to protect the jews come from?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 21 Feb 2022 23:42

Look at the post war literature for the origin. Appologists, and others attempted to reduce accusations and censure or sanctions by representing a more lenient policy. Some of that extended actions by anti Facists, or anti Germans which protected Jews, Communists, Gypsies, & others into government policy, although the government had no policy reflecting those activities. ie: Army officers in the Deuxime Bureau concealed the presence of former Polish solders assisting the French army in reading German codes during 1941 & 1942. But, that was the action of individual French officers & not the official policy of Petains government.

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wm
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Re: where the false idea that vichy france wanted to protect the jews come from?

Post by wm » 22 Feb 2022 23:15

The Vichy regime more or less protected the French Jews, i.e. French citizens. Mostly Jewish immigrants were deported to the East.

And anyway the "participation in the Holocaust" needs to be proved by showing that the Vichy regime knew they would be killed.

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Re: where the false idea that vichy france wanted to protect the jews come from?

Post by aurelien wolff » 23 Feb 2022 09:25

the vichy regime didn't had the intention to protect french jews, cf the denaturalisation and why are you denying the participation of the vichy regime in the holocaust when you got this? https://www.francetvinfo.fr/culture/pat ... 91205.html
https://www.lhistoire.fr/pi%C3%A8ces-%C ... -les-juifs
And how does the vichy regime not knowing they were killed mean they didn't participated in the holocaust? even if they didn't, they still willingly sended them to the camp. Paxton doesn't agree with zemmour https://toutelaculture.com/actu/lhistor ... ur-petain/

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wm
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Re: where the false idea that vichy france wanted to protect the jews come from?

Post by wm » 23 Feb 2022 10:15

Facts need to be proved, not assumed.
I've asked for evidence that the French leaders were aware of the real purpose of the deportations, and so far, I've got nothing.

French authorities sent two million French workers as forced laborers to Germany. So the fact they sent 75,000 (mostly non-French) Jews too (for security reasons as it was claimed - i.e., like the Japanese Americans in 1942) wasn't that unusual.

As the Holocaust was a state secret, there is no example of the Nazis informing the deported Jews or the local authorities about the real purpose of the deportations. That made the Holocaust cheap and logistically simply because the Jews almost invariably arrived in death camps without any knowledge of what awaited them there.
And made the local collaboration in the deportations relatively easy - and that includes Jewish administration of the ghettos and Jewish Police that frequently delivered Jews to deportation points.

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Re: where the false idea that vichy france wanted to protect the jews come from?

Post by aurelien wolff » 23 Feb 2022 11:57

they knew, why are you denying vichy france participation in this https://www.lemonde.fr/archives/article ... 19218.html
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-03096262/document
https://www.cairn.info/les-secrets-de-v ... ge-199.htm
if the ally knew, we can assume vichy would too and it's not like hitler wasn't showing his intention toward them https://www.herodote.net/Que_savait_on_ ... ese-76.php

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Re: where the false idea that vichy france wanted to protect the jews come from?

Post by wm » 23 Feb 2022 23:18

The author of the last article is absurdly ignorant of history.
Of course, the Western leaders knew.
They were promptly informed about the events as they unfolded by the Polish Government in Exile - according to information received from the Polish Underground. They didn't learn about them from newspapers as the author seems to think.

The first turning point was the 700,000-killed report published by the Polish Government and amplified by BBC Foreign Service all over Europe in June 1942.
The second "The Mass Extermination of Jews in Occupied Poland" note to the United Nations in December 1942.
The response was "The Joint Declaration by Members of the United Nations" and the Bermuda Conference where possible responses were discussed.

But Western leaders knew what had happened and not what would happen.
That Jews were killed during Barbarossa was no proof that the Polish Jews would be killed.
That Jews were killed in Eastern Poland was no proof that the Jews in the largest ghettos would be killed too.
And wasn't proof that the Hungarian Jews or Western Jews would be killed too.
This is why the deportation of the 250,000 Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto went so smoothly. And the deportation 500,000 of Hungarian Jews even more smoothly.
Nobody expected anything and people wanted to believe they were safe anyway.

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Re: where the false idea that vichy france wanted to protect the jews come from?

Post by aurelien wolff » 24 Feb 2022 10:35

sorry but people knew of the holocaust during world war 2 and as I said, it's not like hitler hided his intention toward the jews. Are you finally going to accept vichy france took part in the holocaust and didn't had the intention to proect the jews (both french and foreign)?

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Re: where the false idea that vichy france wanted to protect the jews come from?

Post by wm » 25 Feb 2022 00:47

As I've said, I haven't seen any evidence the French leaders were aware of what would happen to "their" Jews. so the question did they want or didn't is pointless.
And junk, found-on-the-Internet articles can't change that.

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Re: where the false idea that vichy france wanted to protect the jews come from?

Post by LAstry2 » 23 Nov 2022 18:22


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