French Guyana, Martinique and Guadeloupe WW2

[druid12]

What military forces (French or locally raised units ) existed early WW2? Were these territories Free or Vichy ? Pat.

[Vitesse]

Martinique and Guadeloupe were both under Vichy control until July 1943, although the population were increasingly pro-Allied and by that time 100 or so refugees (civilian and military) were arriving in nearby Dominica every day.

The Vichy governor in French Guiana resigned in March 1943 after two weeks of anti-Vichy demonstrations in Cayenne, the colony immediately declaring its support for Giraud (not de Gaulle, but that's another story!).

[Loïc]

all had reduced Marine Infantry & Artillery units*, the time of the French-British wars for the supremacy in the Americas and the Perfidious Albion's threat was very far in 1939 to conserve whole Regiments in each island

*named "Colonial Infantry & Artillery" since 1900 even if soldiers in these units were French citizens not indigenous

-Martinique a Colonial Infantry Battalion and a Colonial Artillery Group
-Guadeloupe 2 Colonial Infantry Companies
-Guyane a mixed Colonial Infantry Company, "Mixed" because the unit had Colonial Infantrymen (French metropolitan or Overseas citizens) and Senegalese Tirailleurs (indigenous)


others units were raised, Bataillon de Marche des Antilles became 21st Anti Aicraft Artillery Group and served with the 1st Motorised Infantry Division in Europe,
an other Battalion served with the French Forces against the German pockets in the Atlantic coast in 1945

[druid12]

Vitesse and Loic many thanks for your usefull information. Pat.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Loic,

I was under the impression that the infantry battalion on Martinique was raised from Senegalese. I remember seeing reports from 1943 that Admiral Robert was less able to rely on his army units than on his naval units. The former allegedly increasingly identified on racial grounds with local West Indian demonstrators against Robert's rule, whereas the all-white naval crews, although deserting to Dominica in numbers, did not. Can you clarify whether there is any possible truth in this?

Do you know any more on the evolution of French army units in the West Indies over 1939-40? It seems likely that most of the regular garrison would have been sent to France to help form a Colonial or African division at this time and that what was left would have been mostly depots and recruits in training.

I guess the armistice conditions would have prevented Robert expanding his forces to face any Anglo-American threat. In October 1940 all the naval conscripts in service were sent back from Martinique to France, so I assume that Robert kept to the Armistice conditions for his army units as well.

One other thing - there were large and wealthy French communities around Latin America. Did the Free French have much success recruiting from them, or were they largely loyal to Vichy? The British raised money in the Anglo-Latin American communities to buy dozens of aircraft for the RAF. The Norwegians in exile did the same on a smaller scale in Latin America. Did the Free French raise funds for aircraft in Latin America?

Cheers,

Sid.

[takata_1940]

I was under the impression that the infantry battalion on Martinique was raised from Senegalese. I remember seeing reports from 1943 that Admiral Robert was less able to rely on his army units than on his naval units. The former allegedly increasingly identified on racial grounds with local West Indian demonstrators against Robert's rule, whereas the all-white naval crews, although deserting to Dominica in numbers, did not. Can you clarify whether there is any possible truth in this?

Hi Sid,
Your impression isn't correct because the "Senegalese Tirailleur" general designation stood for any "Black" troops inside the French Army, wherever they came from (Tchad, Madagascar, Réunion, Somalia, Gabon, Congo, etc.). Local troops raised from Martinique & Guadeloupe (where the population was 99% black) served into Colonial (Tirailleurs) units as Loïc explained above. Then, they should have been called rightly "Tirailleurs Antillais" instead of "Tirailleurs Sénégalais". Those who deserted to Dominica in numbers were mostly locals as well as some regulars from the Navy and Army.

Do you know any more on the evolution of French army units in the West Indies over 1939-40? It seems likely that most of the regular garrison would have been sent to France to help form a Colonial or African division at this time and that what was left would have been mostly depots and recruits in training.

The "Regular" troops were very few (as was armament) during peacetime as Loïc explained also; a single Colonial (mean "black") battalion was shared between Martinique, Guadeloupe and Guyanne. They were expanded to several battalions after mobilisation (at least one in each island); then the peacetime troops served as a cadre and instructors for those new units. The GHQ certainly had plans to raise more "Antillaises" troops later as the total population was around 600,000 (550,000 Antilles; 30,000 Guyanne).

I guess the armistice conditions would have prevented Robert expanding his forces to face any Anglo-American threat. In October 1940 all the naval conscripts in service were sent back from Martinique to France, so I assume that Robert kept to the Armistice conditions for his army units as well.

First, Robert had no armament for expanding anything and, in case of any US move into the Islands, his only plan was to burn the ferried ~80 brand new aircraft stocked (and rotting) here (there was no airfield, fuel, ammo and pilots to use them anyway). The naval conscripts were few in number on the whole fleet (maybe 10% aboard operational units). All the aircraft were finaly burned after a false alarm!

One other thing - there were large and wealthy French communities around Latin America. Did the Free French have much success recruiting from them, or were they largely loyal to Vichy? The British raised money in the Anglo-Latin American communities to buy dozens of aircraft for the RAF. The Norwegians in exile did the same on a smaller scale in Latin America. Did the Free French raise funds for aircraft in Latin America?

French mentality wasn't about raising private funds to help the Armed Forces; this was the governement's job. I'm only aware of 12 Morane 406 built in 1939 from such a fund raising and I believe it was from the whole country. After French armistice, it isn't impossible that the Free French movement recieved some funds from expatriates (also from many private foreigners). As an anecdote, Pierre Clostermann (The Great Show writer), came from South America after having been a private pîlot trained in the US. As a generalisation, the expatriates were hardly pro-Vichy (unless they were officials that could be revoked by Vichy). A lot joined the Free-French when they had the oportunity.

S~
Olivier

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Olivier,

My impression was that "colonial" troops were white and the "Senegalese" covered all sub-saharan black troops. Loic appears to say the same in writing "Colonial Infantrymen (French metropolitan or Overseas citizens) and Senegalese Tirailleurs (indigenous)". However, the situation as regards Black French West Indians was obscure to me.

Could you please clarify the situation in the West Indies. Are you saying that all the "colonial" units Loic listed as being in the West Indies had locally-raised black rank-and-file? Is this because French West Indians were considered "overseas citizens" whereas French sub-saharan Africans were not? (The British had a similar division between their West Indians, who were classified administratively as British, and their sub-saharan African troops, who were not.) If the answer to the first question is yes, this would explain why they identified with the local population and Robert felt he couldn't fully rely on them by 1943.

Were any French West Indian units sent to France in 1939-40?

I presume that, if the garrison on each island was increased to at least a battalion per island in 1939-40, Robert would have had some basic weaponry to spare above the peacetime strength the armistice reduced him to?

Only a minority of the aircraft were burned after a false alarm. I have the figures somewhere.

I should have written "conscripts and reservists". Operational naval units in the West Indies in 1940 included three auxiliary merchant cruisers whose crews were almost entirely reservists, so I would suggest that over all the West Indies squadron probably consisted of rather more than 10% non-regulars, even if the Bearn and the two cruisers did not.

There was some raising of funds in Latin America. A Brazilian media proprietor (Chateaubriand?) of French extraction in Brazil certainly channeled donations to the British. De Gaulle also sent the archaeologist Soustelle (spelling?) on a mission there in 1941, though with what success I don't know.

Many thanks,

Sid.

[takata_1940]

Hi Sid,

My impression was that "colonial" troops were white and the "Senegalese" covered all sub-saharan black troops. Loic appears to say the same in writing "Colonial Infantrymen (French metropolitan or Overseas citizens) and Senegalese Tirailleurs (indigenous)". However, the situation as regards Black French West Indians was obscure to me.

Ok... my bad: the real thing is much more complicated than that:

First, without checking it closely, I thought from your question that you had mixed the "Senegalese" Colonial troops based in the French Antilles with "Antillaises" troops (but there was none here). The reason is, as I explained above, that the "Black-African" troops from anywhere were refered as "Senegalese", because it was only a generic French Army designation disregarding of the actual origin of the people serving on it (subsaharian or not). Actually, all "Black" people from French Antilles served in Colonial "Senegalese" Regiments or "Mixed" Colonial Regiments. After checking it, the Colonial troops based in the French Antilles (Guadeloupe & Martinique) and Guyanne (partly) were all European, then called "Infanterie (or Artillerie) Coloniale". During peacetime: 4 Companies, one Battery of 75 mm and one anti-aircraft Battery:
- Martinique: 40 Officers, 658 NCOs & ORs;
- Guadeloupe: 3 Officers, 146 NCOs & ORs;
- Guyanne: 4 Officers, 107 NCOs & ORs + 77 "Indigenous";

After mobilisation, the Colonial units were also formed from "European" troops, except one company:
- Bataillon d'Infanterie Coloniale de la Guyanne, at Cayenne;
- Compagnie Mixte d'Infanterie Coloniale de la Guyanne, at Cayenne;
- Bataillon d'Infanterie Coloniale de la Martinique, at Fort-de-France;
- Groupe d'Artillerie Coloniale de la Martinique, at Fort-de-France (2 Field Btries, 4 Coastal Btries)
- 1e Compagnie d'Infanterie Coloniale de la Guadeloupe, at St Claude;
- 2e Compagnie d'Infanterie Coloniale de la Guadeloupe, at St Claude;

Second. The term "Colonial(e)" is covering both the "European" and "Indigenous" soldiers. This is an administrative rule concerning all the forces under the Ministry of Colonies rather than the Ministry of War. A Colonial unit of "European" Infantry is called "Infanterie Coloniale"; a Colonial unit of Black-African Infantry is called "Tirailleurs Sénégalais", a Colonial unit of Vietnamese Infantry is called "Tirailleurs Annamites" or "Tirailleurs Tonkinois", etc. A Colonial Regiment with mixed Battalions of European/Indigenous troops, is called "Régiment Mixte d'Infanterie Coloniale"; the same at lower echelons.

Could you please clarify the situation in the West Indies. Are you saying that all the "colonial" units Loic listed as being in the West Indies had locally-raised black rank-and-file? Is this because French West Indians were considered "overseas citizens" whereas French sub-saharan Africans were not? (The British had a similar division between their West Indians, who were classified administratively as British, and their sub-saharan African troops, who were not.) If the answer to the first question is yes, this would explain why they identified with the local population and Robert felt he couldn't fully rely on them by 1943.

Actually, the "Statut Départemental", transforming the "Colonies" of French Antilles, Guyanne and La Réunion into French Administrative Departments was accepted overseas in 1938 but it will wait until 1946 to be voted also by the Métropole. Then, the people still lived under "Colonial" administration without the full citizenship regarding the conscription laws (that is why they still served into Colonial units). By the Colonial law, the men were drafted by drawing lots and served for a period of two to three years abroad, and were subject to mobilisation in the reserve for war. I suppose they were sent to Colonial depots in France or North-Africa as no specific "Antillaise" Colonial unit existed.

Were any French West Indian units sent to France in 1939-40?

No. See above.

I presume that, if the garrison on each island was increased to at least a battalion per island in 1939-40, Robert would have had some basic weaponry to spare above the peacetime strength the armistice reduced him to?

Old stuff. Order keeping was the only preoccupation of the Colonial Office here.

Only a minority of the aircraft were burned after a false alarm. I have the figures somewhere.

Those assembled and parked were all destroyed beyond repair; others were still boxed and will reach North-Africa/France in 1944 for spare parts. Most airframes were corrupted by salty air.

S~
Olivier

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Olivier,

An excellent reply. It is a pleasure to receive such a comprehensive answer on a subject that is, at least to us British, an obscure subject. Thank you very much indeed.

Might I ask you one more question?

I have read that French marines initially occupied Aruba in the Dutch West Indies and that they were later replaced by another unit. Do you have any information on this?

Many thanks,

Sid.

[Kelvin]

Hi Sid,

My impression was that "colonial" troops were white and the "Senegalese" covered all sub-saharan black troops. Loic appears to say the same in writing "Colonial Infantrymen (French metropolitan or Overseas citizens) and Senegalese Tirailleurs (indigenous)". However, the situation as regards Black French West Indians was obscure to me.

Ok... my bad: the real thing is much more complicated than that:

First, without checking it closely, I thought from your question that you had mixed the "Senegalese" Colonial troops based in the French Antilles with "Antillaises" troops (but there was none here). The reason is, as I explained above, that the "Black-African" troops from anywhere were refered as "Senegalese", because it was only a generic French Army designation disregarding of the actual origin of the people serving on it (subsaharian or not). Actually, all "Black" people from French Antilles served in Colonial "Senegalese" Regiments or "Mixed" Colonial Regiments. After checking it, the Colonial troops based in the French Antilles (Guadeloupe & Martinique) and Guyanne (partly) were all European, then called "Infanterie (or Artillerie) Coloniale". During peacetime: 4 Companies, one Battery of 75 mm and one anti-aircraft Battery:
- Martinique: 40 Officers, 658 NCOs & ORs;
- Guadeloupe: 3 Officers, 146 NCOs & ORs;
- Guyanne: 4 Officers, 107 NCOs & ORs + 77 "Indigenous";

After mobilisation, the Colonial units were also formed from "European" troops, except one company:
- Bataillon d'Infanterie Coloniale de la Guyanne, at Cayenne;
- Compagnie Mixte d'Infanterie Coloniale de la Guyanne, at Cayenne;
- Bataillon d'Infanterie Coloniale de la Martinique, at Fort-de-France;
- Groupe d'Artillerie Coloniale de la Martinique, at Fort-de-France (2 Field Btries, 4 Coastal Btries)
- 1e Compagnie d'Infanterie Coloniale de la Guadeloupe, at St Claude;
- 2e Compagnie d'Infanterie Coloniale de la Guadeloupe, at St Claude;

Second. The term "Colonial(e)" is covering both the "European" and "Indigenous" soldiers. This is an administrative rule concerning all the forces under the Ministry of Colonies rather than the Ministry of War. A Colonial unit of "European" Infantry is called "Infanterie Coloniale"; a Colonial unit of Black-African Infantry is called "Tirailleurs Sénégalais", a Colonial unit of Vietnamese Infantry is called "Tirailleurs Annamites" or "Tirailleurs Tonkinois", etc. A Colonial Regiment with mixed Battalions of European/Indigenous troops, is called "Régiment Mixte d'Infanterie Coloniale"; the same at lower echelons.

Could you please clarify the situation in the West Indies. Are you saying that all the "colonial" units Loic listed as being in the West Indies had locally-raised black rank-and-file? Is this because French West Indians were considered "overseas citizens" whereas French sub-saharan Africans were not? (The British had a similar division between their West Indians, who were classified administratively as British, and their sub-saharan African troops, who were not.) If the answer to the first question is yes, this would explain why they identified with the local population and Robert felt he couldn't fully rely on them by 1943.

Actually, the "Statut Départemental", transforming the "Colonies" of French Antilles, Guyanne and La Réunion into French Administrative Departments was accepted overseas in 1938 but it will wait until 1946 to be voted also by the Métropole. Then, the people still lived under "Colonial" administration without the full citizenship regarding the conscription laws (that is why they still served into Colonial units). By the Colonial law, the men were drafted by drawing lots and served for a period of two to three years abroad, and were subject to mobilisation in the reserve for war. I suppose they were sent to Colonial depots in France or North-Africa as no specific "Antillaise" Colonial unit existed.

Were any French West Indian units sent to France in 1939-40?

No. See above.

I presume that, if the garrison on each island was increased to at least a battalion per island in 1939-40, Robert would have had some basic weaponry to spare above the peacetime strength the armistice reduced him to?

Old stuff. Order keeping was the only preoccupation of the Colonial Office here.

Only a minority of the aircraft were burned after a false alarm. I have the figures somewhere.

Those assembled and parked were all destroyed beyond repair; others were still boxed and will reach North-Africa/France in 1944 for spare parts. Most airframes were corrupted by salty air.

S~
Olivier

IF Colonial infantry was under the Ministry of Colony, what about DIA stationed in Africa ? As Algeria was ruled as part of Metropolitan France in three departments and under the control of Ministry of Interior while Tunisia and Morocceo were French Protectorte and should be under the control of Quai d' Orsay, right ? So war ministry only commanded Metropolitan Army ?

And as I know Guadeloupe joined the Free French in 1940.

[CNE503]

Algeria was considered as French metropolitan territory. The Divisions d'Infanterie d'Afrique (DIA, ie litteraly Infantry Divisions of Africa) were part of the army and raised mainly from indigenous troops such as tirailleurs and spahis but also zouaves and chasseurs d'Afrique (the last two types being of local European recruitment, not indigenous one).

It was the same for the Divisions d'Infanterie Nord-Africaine (ie litteraly North African Infantry Divisions). But not for the three Divisions Marocaines (Morrocan Divisions).

Cheers,

CNE503

[Loïc]

Guadeloupe didn't join Free France in 1940 or after, but as all the rest of the last colonies remaining under French flag after the invasion of the southern free zone, except Indochina, the CFLN in Algiers

Colonial Infantry under the Ministry of Colonies...I don't think or when there was a Ministry of Navy AND Colonies in the XVIIIth XIXth century...the Marine Infantry & Artillery from this Ministry changed their names in 1901 to "Colonial Infantry & Artillery" when they passed from the Ministry of Navy authority (with own Infanterie & Artillerie de Marine) to the War Ministry and retook their traditional historical names in 1958 for obvious reasons, the Ministry of Colonies was a third ministry separated from the Ministry of the Navy in the last century
the Colonial Troops as others branches of the French Army were under the War Ministry authority forming a "8e Direction" or Direction des Troupes Coloniales, maybe in 1939 the Ministry of Colonies was still concerned at a lower level with some military affairs touching the units located in colonial overseas territories or something like that but it did not have the high main authority of the colonial troops, that is sure

Other point about the French West Indians & Guyanese soldiers, I am not sure that I wrote was really understood, so to clarify : white-créoles, blacks, mulattos, what you want or any color, all the people from these territories we called the "Old Colonies" (St Pierre & Miquelon, Antilles-Guyane, Réunion, and the special case of the four Senegalese towns the "Quatre-Communes") were for the non-whites for the second time in 1848 and definitively French citizens so, not counting the last special case, don't expect to see them into any separate indigenous black African Tirailleurs units because most of them were blacks, it was even not allowed for them such units since the years 1880, except only as French officers or NCO's cadres of course

historically they were sent into the former Marine Infantry/newly named "Colonial Infantry" (so I insist : not the indigenous units but with their "whites" metropolitan compatriots) in the units located in West Indies or metropolitan France but during both world wars you can find them even in purely metropolitan units as any other metropolitan french conscript or reservist, and not only the traditional Colonial "whites" units where they usually served e.g. I found for 1939-1940 a group of West Indians dead in the ranks of the 123e RI traditional regiment of Bordeaux-La Rochelle area and West Indian POW's from Alpine units, when you search others they were very far to belong exclusively to colonial troops

not representative but to illustrate that, about the 61 French soldiers from Guadeloupe killed in may-june 1940 in France : 14 with the 123e RI, others 23 from (mainly southwestern) metropolitan infantry units...
about the 71 from Martinique, less than one third coming from colonial infantry units, more the half of the KIA from metropolitan infantry, alpine regiments are most mentionned units

for Aruba in may 1940 in the Dutch West Indies it was the contrary : "marines" not replaced but replacing 180 sailors, not all fusiliers-marins, of the cruiser crew Primauguet replaced by 450 marine-infantrymen from the Bataillon d'Infanterie Coloniale de la Martinique
as a coincidence it happened unexpected difficulties to disembark them totally in echo with what I explained few lines before
the captain Pierre Goybet of the cruiser Primauguet informing the governor of Aruba that they will be replaced
-by French troops? asked the Dutch governor
-yes Colonial Infantry companies of Fort-de-France
-but they are not whites
-no but they are French citizens even so
-that is a point of view...french
through persistence he eventually resolve to that landing begrudgingly, when I tell him now that concerns 450 men he flatly refused...
http://atf40.forumculture.net/t4119p15- ... uay-trouin
the 450 soldiers from Martinique Battalion landed the 14th may 1940
Regards
Loïc L.

[Kelvin]

Hi, Loic, thank so much.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Loic,

So, as I understand it, men from the Old Colonies had full French citizenship, regardless of race, and, when sent to France, could find themselves posted to Metropolitan or Colonial units.

Presumably they were posted to southern French regiments because they were landed in the south of France?

I have some partial information on the mobilization in the West Indies and Guyane:

As I understand it, Martinique could mobilize 5,300 men. Some 2,000 were sent to France in 1939-40.

Guyane could mobilize 1,234 men. Some 250 were sent to France in April 1940.

However, I have nothing on mobilization in Guadeloupe. Do you know anything?

Many thanks,

Sid.

[Kelvin]

Did soldiers of Guyane, Martinique and Guadeloupe, Reunion concentrated in 35e DI and 2e Colonial ?