The official AHF France quiz thread

Discussions on all aspects of France during the Inter-War era and Second World War.
takata_1940
Member
Posts: 469
Joined: 01 Jun 2007 05:48
Location: France

Re: The official AHF France quiz thread

Post by takata_1940 » 05 Dec 2009 08:43

Hint: here is Gamelin below showing his stars. What General Officer rank was it in the French Army?
(the correct answer is not so obvious as one may think)
Image

takata_1940
Member
Posts: 469
Joined: 01 Jun 2007 05:48
Location: France

Re: The official AHF France quiz thread

Post by takata_1940 » 06 Dec 2009 11:02

Last hint:

Any French general with:
- two stars = "général de Brigade"
- three stars = "général de division"
- four stars = "général de corps d'armée"
- five stars = "général d'armée"

So, the obvious answer would be that Gamelin, having 5 stars, was a "général d'armée". But in fact, such a designation is a shortcut for the correct one I am asking for.

takata_1940
Member
Posts: 469
Joined: 01 Jun 2007 05:48
Location: France

Re: The official AHF France quiz thread

Post by takata_1940 » 07 Dec 2009 22:14

Well..
Is the thread dead or should I give myself the right answer?
I can provide a link but French is mandatory to sort it out as I doubt a computer translation would be adequate:
grades de l'armée de terre

The relevant part:
Les officiers généraux

Les officiers généraux portent le titre de général de brigade, général de division, général de corps d'armée, général d'armée.
La qualification de général découle d'une abréviation utilisée aux temps de la monarchie en France. On appelait capitaine-général puis colonel-général le commandant de compagnie qui donnait des ordres aux autres commandants en période de guerre. A partir de Charles VII en France, l'habitude a été prise de donner au représentant du Roi le titre de lieutenant-général. Le titre ne devient un grade que sous louis XIII. La Révolution le remplace par celui de général de division mais la Restauration le réhabilite. La chute de la Monarchie de Juillet consacre l'appellation de général de division.

* Général de brigade :
Grade créé au XVIe siècle. Ceux qui le portent sont appelés maréchaux de camp sous l'Ancien régime, la Restauration et la Monarchie de Juillet. Le grade est établi par décret du 28 février 1848.
Le général de brigade porte deux étoiles sur les manches de son uniforme et le képi.

* Général de division :
Ce grade a été crée en 1621 sous l'appellation de lieutenant-général. Jusqu'en 1914, c'est le grade le plus élevé de la hiérarchie ; il permet d'accéder aux fonctions de commandant de corps d'armée et d'armée.
Le général de division porte trois étoiles.
Cependant, le grade de général de division donne naissance à deux autres appellations de grade distinctes : général de corps d'armée (quatre étoiles) et général d'armée (cinq étoiles). Une circulaire du 17 mars 1921 attribue les rangs et prérogatives de commandant de corps d'armée aux généraux de division, ainsi que les rangs et prérogatives de commandant d'armée aux généraux de division membres du Conseil supérieur de la guerre. Ces appellations sont simplifiées en général de corps d'armée et général d'armée par un décret du 6 juin 1939. Néanmoins, la loi portant statut général des militaires et l'annuaire des officiers d'active conservent les appellations anciennes dans ses pages traitant des généraux et mentionne général de division ayant rang et appellation de général de corps d'armée ou général de division ayant rang et appellation de général d'armée.

* Maréchal :
Le maréchalat n'est pas un grade mais une dignité.
La dignité de maréchal de France remonte à Philippe Auguste qui l'institua en 1185. Les maréchaux prirent rang, sous Henri II, parmi les dignitaires de l'Etat aussitôt après les princes de sang, puis sous Henri IV devinrent cousins du roi. Leur nombre était limité, ils constituaient le tribunal d'honneur chargé de se prononcer sur les accusations de déloyauté sous Louis XIII. Louis XIV porte leur nombre à 16 puis 20. La Convention les supprime en 1793 et Napoléon les rétablit. Aujourd'hui, la dignité de maréchal ne peut être conférée qu'a un officier général ayant commandé victorieusement en temps de guerre.
Le maréchal porte 7 étoiles d'argent.
Les maréchaux arborent un bâton de velours bleu parsemé d'étoile sur le lequel est écrit : "Terror belli, decus pacis" qui signifie : Terreur durant la guerre, ornement pour le temps de paix.
(emphase is mine)
S~
Olivier

takata_1940
Member
Posts: 469
Joined: 01 Jun 2007 05:48
Location: France

Re: The official AHF France quiz thread

Post by takata_1940 » 08 Dec 2009 17:39

Ok, the correct answer was: "général de division" or more accurately: "général de division ayant rang et appellation de général d'armée" (Divisional general having the rank and title of Army general).

The fact that there is only two official ranks (brigade and division) for French general officers is obviously little know. As it is explained above, from 1914, the "général de division" may have three, four or five stars. Even Maréchal Pétain was still officialy ranked "général de division" as the 'Maréchal de France' status is a state dignity awarded to its victorious general officers, but not an army rank.

As a side anecdote, this 'rank issue' had caused some concern to the French general officers during the funerals of Georges V. Due to the zealous British (perfidious) protocole, all the highest ranking French generals and admirals attending the ceremony were ranked as if they were only 'three stars' (Navy and Air force ranking is not different) and were relegated far away behind Siamese 'Admirals' or Persian 'Marshalls'.

Following this pride wound, it was decreted on 6 June 1939 that they could officialy use the rank of their function instead of the complete rank designation. At the same time, Darlan asked for a new title-rank of 'Amiral de la Flotte' (Fleet Admiral) to be created on the Royal Navy model. He disliked to be ranked lower than any British Admiral. The other laughed at it ('Amiral de quoi d'autre?') but refused the creation of a 'Marshall' title-rank in the French Army, considering it would be a kind of 'sous-Maréchal' (under-Marshall).

I'll let anyone ask for a new question.
S~
Olivier

Adler
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 03:59
Location: Mid-west U.S.

Re: The official AHF France quiz thread

Post by Adler » 04 Feb 2011 16:53

I haven't provided any previous answers...and since there hasn't been any activity on this thread, permit me to post this question.
Who is the individual in this photo, and what is his service cap?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Georges JEROME
Financial supporter
Posts: 7825
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 13:04
Location: France

Re: The official AHF France quiz thread

Post by Georges JEROME » 04 Feb 2011 22:31

I would say Maurice Papon Secretaire General de la Prefecture de la Gironde
(General Secretary of the Gironde Departement)


Georges

Adler
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 03:59
Location: Mid-west U.S.

Re: The official AHF France quiz thread

Post by Adler » 04 Feb 2011 23:05

Thank you, Georges!
I also appreciate your reply to my other thread on the same subject.
Was he part of the Vichy government?

Georges JEROME
Financial supporter
Posts: 7825
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 13:04
Location: France

Re: The official AHF France quiz thread

Post by Georges JEROME » 04 Feb 2011 23:32

yes, He was first Directeur de Cabinet du Secretariat Général pour l'Administration de Vichy from 2/41 to 2/42 (Chief of Staff of the Director of the Administration of Vichy). therefore It was a senior civil servant position not a political position.

From 1942 to 1944 he was Secrétaire Général of the Prefecture of the Departement of Gironde at Bordeaux.

Georges

Georges JEROME
Financial supporter
Posts: 7825
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 13:04
Location: France

Re: The official AHF France quiz thread

Post by Georges JEROME » 05 Feb 2011 00:39

who is this general ?
one hint : he held a high position in state and army in 1942
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Sarigue
Member
Posts: 42
Joined: 21 Nov 2009 12:34

Re: The official AHF France quiz thread

Post by Sarigue » 16 Mar 2011 18:16

Charles Nogues

Georges JEROME
Financial supporter
Posts: 7825
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 13:04
Location: France

Re: The official AHF France quiz thread

Post by Georges JEROME » 11 Dec 2011 21:54

congratulations !
Charles Nogues was both state position of General Resident in Marocco from 1936 to 1943
and army duties of Commander in Chief in North Africa from 1939 to 1943

your turn

Georges

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33940
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Re: The official AHF France quiz thread

Post by Marcus » 01 Sep 2012 15:39

Anyone willing to post a new question to get the quiz moving again?

/Marcus

Georges JEROME
Financial supporter
Posts: 7825
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 13:04
Location: France

Re: The official AHF France quiz thread

Post by Georges JEROME » 01 Sep 2012 17:07

Ancestor of a famous french author and diplomat, he won the famous "Prix Goncourt". On 1940 he created a collaborationist mag then in 1941 became president of an association of intellectuals which support the "Collaboration".
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Georges JEROME
Financial supporter
Posts: 7825
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 13:04
Location: France

Re: The official AHF France quiz thread

Post by Georges JEROME » 02 Sep 2012 23:25

first hint : name of newspaper "la Gerbe"

narwan
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 03 Mar 2004 23:06
Location: Nijmegen

Re: The official AHF France quiz thread

Post by narwan » 22 Nov 2012 18:34

Alphonse de Chateaubriant

Return to “France 1919-1945”