Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Discussions on all aspects of France during the Inter-War era and Second World War.
User avatar
The Edge
Member
Posts: 4167
Joined: 28 Nov 2005 10:18
Location: Serbia

Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 20 Nov 2009 10:31

More details:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
The Edge
Member
Posts: 4167
Joined: 28 Nov 2005 10:18
Location: Serbia

Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 20 Nov 2009 10:33

…and few more, thanks to “friendly arms dealers” (who try to sell it to re-enactors as Japanese “Type 93” :lol: )
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

poky
Member
Posts: 106
Joined: 26 Mar 2006 17:52
Location: the netherlands

Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by poky » 20 Nov 2009 12:22

great tread can't help with more info on this topic as most I know is from here keep it going

User avatar
The Edge
Member
Posts: 4167
Joined: 28 Nov 2005 10:18
Location: Serbia

Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 20 Nov 2009 12:56

poky wrote:great tread can't help with more info on this topic as most I know is from here keep it going
Glad you like it! :D

In "following episodes" :wink:
- China
- Japan
- Post-WWII
- Ammo
- Magazines & crates
- "Pre-history"
- "Legacy I" - Breda M.31 in 13.2mm
- "Legacy II" - Browning in 13.2mm

Keep enjoying,
Edge

David Reasoner
Member
Posts: 193
Joined: 10 May 2009 03:15

Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by David Reasoner » 22 Nov 2009 22:07

The Edge wrote:Mexico was another South American user, with Guardacostas “Tipo 20” (10-ship class) as the prime example. Armament of these ships was rather unique one, but well suited to the purpose of these small ships – single 37mm gun, 25mm twin-gun and finalmente, un montaje cuádruple de 13’2 mm. para misiones policiales completaba su amplia panoplia – i.e. all Hotckisses stage! (That made Mexico the only country that used the whole Hotchkiss line – 7mm MMG, 13.2mm HMG, 25mm & 37mm automatic guns – and probably some LMGs too)
Do you have any information on the Hotchkiss 37mm guns used by this class? Or for that matter on the Schneider 37mm guns purchased by Venezuela?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/t ... +ID+needed

Interestingly, most naval references don't seem to mention the 37mm armament of the Mexican 'G' class patrol boats at all, just the 25mm and 13.2mm weapons.

David

User avatar
The Edge
Member
Posts: 4167
Joined: 28 Nov 2005 10:18
Location: Serbia

Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 23 Nov 2009 09:30

Estos guardacostas no tuvieron otro nombre que la sigla “G” seguida de un número entre el 20 y el 29, por lo que son conocidos como “Tipo 20” ... Lo excepcional es la profusión de armamento en un casco de tan reducidas dimensiones: en la toldilla disponían de una pieza de 37 mm. de fabricación francesa, útil en tiro de superficie y antiaéreo, mientras que en el castillo de proa se posicionó un montaje doble de 25 mm. de fabricación española, aunque inspirado en la pieza inglesa Hotchkiss. Finalmente, un montaje cuádruple de 13’2 mm. para misiones policiales completaba su amplia panoplia. Obviamente no existía ningún tipo de central para la dirección de tiro, por lo que debía confiarse en el buen hacer de los artilleros.
http://base.mforos.com/770682/4228830-u ... -historia/

This is my source about the “Tipo 20” armament. From “37 mm. de fabricación francesa”, which is "útil en tiro de superficie y antiaéreo", with other guns being the Hotchkiss models (25mm, 13.2mm) and since that brochure of “Captain 1st Class de Artilleria Reynaldo Garcia Macias, of Mexican Army”, deals with ALL Hotchkiss types, I concluded that the 37mm gun was also Hotchkiss (automatic) one.

Of course, I could be wrong. :roll: (Naval affairs are not my prime interest. :oops: ) Maybe 37mm gun had a short career on "G class" - or the 37mm gun was of another type - soon to be removed and forgotten.

BTW, this topic is not about me lecturing about the Hotchkiss 13.2mm, I just want to check (or to provoke :wink: ) some issues and to learn something more during the process.

Regards,
Edge / Antic
-------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. Nothing new about Schneider 37mm, sorry. :(

David Reasoner
Member
Posts: 193
Joined: 10 May 2009 03:15

Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by David Reasoner » 23 Nov 2009 15:50

Thanks, Edge! Although the subject of 1930's French 37mm automatic guns for export has been raised on this forum before, there is still much left to be learned about them.

I have found this thread on the 13.2mm Hotchkiss weapons to be quite informative, just as I have found most of your threads to be. I'm happy to be lectured by you anytime. :lol:

David

User avatar
The Edge
Member
Posts: 4167
Joined: 28 Nov 2005 10:18
Location: Serbia

Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 23 Nov 2009 16:19

David Reasoner wrote:I have found this thread on the 13.2mm Hotchkiss weapons to be quite informative, just as I have found most of your threads to be. I'm happy to be lectured by you anytime.
Thanks! :D Lecturing is my "reserve option" :wink: (When my French bosses kick me out of job - regardless of my advocacy for Gallic issues – Gauloises, Beaujolois, Hotchkiss, etc.) - rather sad perspective for would-be military engineer (not accepted to Military Accademy), writer of detective novels (collapse of Yugo-market) and waste-bin designer (new bosses shifted me to the dirty job in procurement dept.) :?

Those who can - do,
those who can't - teach


Cheers, Edge

(Someone malicious might even call me “deliberate”, since my current girlfriend is school principal)

User avatar
The Edge
Member
Posts: 4167
Joined: 28 Nov 2005 10:18
Location: Serbia

Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 24 Nov 2009 11:27

New data for Mexican ships, armed with Hotchkiss guns:
- Durango http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?lang ... dtrida=976
- Guanajuato Class http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?lang ... dtrida=975
- Nicolas Bravo http://www.warshipsww2.eu/shipsplus.php ... &id=134230

Also, more for the “G”-class (again, without mentioning 37mm gun)
http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?lang ... dtrida=977
with very good photo of “G28”
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
The Edge
Member
Posts: 4167
Joined: 28 Nov 2005 10:18
Location: Serbia

Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 26 Nov 2009 08:52

HOTCHKISS & BRANDT, FRANCE & YUGOSLAVIA
- Untold Story –

Having settled the more pressing issues, as standardization of infantry weapons (FN-Mauser M.24 license), purchase of artillery (Skoda, Czechoslovakia), airplanes (licenses for Brege XIX & Potez XXV) and submarines (Britain, France), Yugoslav Supreme HQ in 1928 turned its attention to more specialized items. Two obvious faults in the armament of standard division were noticed – infantry regiments lacked the organic fire support (only two 37mm Mle 16 infantry guns plus couple of obsolete WWI mortars per regiment) and the only AA protection of divisions had been rifle-caliber MGs (new 8-cm AA guns were regarded as “heavy artillery” and relegated to Armies).

By 1931 Yugoslav Army made its choice – Brandt 81mm mortars were tested and found very good; since they were technically not too challenging to produce, both purchase & license agreement was proposed. Yugoslavs dully opted for another French product, 13.2mm Hotchkiss HMG, for the divisional AA protection (also useful in anti-tank role). No report about testing the weapon exists, however – it seems that the design adoption by Italy, Greece & Romania was a recommendation good enough. By the end of the same year Yugoslavia asked for 80 million francs loan from France for purchasing of about 300 mortars (plus ammo & license rights) and about 200 Hotchkiss HMGs (plus ammo, no license).

During the next year nothing could be done to satisfy the Yugoslav intentions – 1932 was a bad year to ask for ANY loan – adding that previous loans from France (1923) was still not paid, plus the economic crisis in Yugoslavia was at the worst in this period. Additional naval requirements were considered the next year, so when the Yugoslav ambassador in September 1933 gave the precise list of Yugoslav military needs to French Prime minister Daladier, the amount was now 250 million francs! French side gave the approval (in principle only) at December 6th, but followed with (unofficial) “get serious” remark.

By the beginning of 1934 Yugoslav side was a very frustrated one – two years passed without any result, so even the King Alexander had to ply the appeal, emphasizing both the French alliance obligations and Yugoslav endangered position. Although Yugoslav requests were advocated by Ministry of War and Quai d’Orsay, two French Cabinet sessions (20th April & 12th June) went without any decision.

Yugoslav side also started direct negotiations with armament manufacturers (Brandt & Hotchkiss) – special Army committee visited Brandt Factory and made successful negotiations (19th June to 1st July, 1934). French company lowered the price for 3 million francs and offered license arrangement for free. Since the Brand was not in position to credit the Yugoslav sale for asked 10 to12 years, they redirected the Yugoslav side to arrange l’assurance-credit with the French Government for 70% immediate payment of the contract price (20% in advance, 50% promptly after delivery) plus 30% payment in following three years. With similar deal was made with Hotchkiss too, the price tag was finally settled at 36 millions for Brandt and 18 millions francs to Hotchkiss.

Now it was back to French Government; Daladier, Bartou, Pétain – all of them were for helping Yugoslavia and to maintain French military and politic influence there. Their obstacle was minister Germain-Martin from Tresor francais – during Cabinet session at 30th August he evaded to place the direct decision; by 20th September his office finally refused the Yugoslav credit, since France had similar obligations to Greece, Bulgaria and Turkey, so his Office could not spare extra money for yet another armament deal.

All was not lost, however. French War Office stepped in and gave Yugoslavia from their warehouses 10-million francs worth of surplus WWI arms & equipment for “safe-keeping” (formal explanation for a gift). This was a goodwill gesture before the state visit of Yugoslav King in October, with arms purchase as one of things at agenda. Since Yugoslavia now in position to produce some of finance by itself, things became for a bit brighter.

Then disaster stuck – King Alexander was killed by the Ustasha terrorists in Marseilles (along French foreign minister Bartou, who perished after poorly done dressing of insignificant wound), mainly because of sloppy French security measures. With French prestige in Yugoslavia now at the lowest ebb, Quai d’Orsay only could note the series of negative developments, one of them being Hermann Göring using the King funeral for various meetings with Yugoslav officials, offering attractive economical and military deals; soon it is discovered that Yugoslav Army are also considering the “Czech option” as future regimental fire support weapon (Skoda AB1 dual purpose gun – Yugoslavs were now aware of necessity to obtain a more potent anti-tank weapon).

French side reacted quickly – a minister committee was formed in Paris to find the solution. They would employ the French Monopoly in Yugoslavia to conduct the deal - French government would give credit assurance, payable by Yugoslavia in 12 years from the export of tobacco & copper via Regie Francais. Decision was taken at November 20th, against the objections from French Monopoly officials (who preferred the Turkish tobacco).

More precisely, money that came from the export of tobacco was reserved for the Brandt mortar deal, with less income from copper allotted for the purchase of Hotchkiss HMGs. Than, in December 1934, French side found that Yugoslav arrangement with arms manufacturers include 70% immediate payment – the amount of money that Tresor francais could ill-afford. Furthermore, the tobacco supply was Yugoslav State monopoly, but the copper was not – a French-British private company, what controlled the Serbian copper mines since the end of WWI, refused to increase its production to cover Hotchkiss deal payments. (They didn’t want to jeopardize their market price with overproduction for something unproductive as armament purchase.) This forced the unpleasant decision for the Hotchkiss side – its “piece of cake” would be settled separately.

In February 1935 Yugoslav Army considered the Skoda 37/70mm dual gun, with a customary quarrel amongst the generals. Since Yugoslav war industry was not sophisticated enough to produce anything more demanding than Brandt mortar – and more than a thousand of such weapons were needed, too costly to be solely purchased abroad - the final decision was a predetermined one. (Skoda would have its chance later, with more conventional designs.) Yugoslav Cabinet dully approved the Brandt deal at 9th April 1935, with contract signed already at 11th. Weapons were delivered in two shipments (late 1935 and 1936 – 300 mortars and 90,000 rounds of ammo, plus fuses, crates, etc.), with Yugoslav production starting soon after.
(This mortar was called M.1931 in Yugoslav Army, regardless of place of origin; one unexpected benefit from this lengthy procedure was that Yugoslavia could start immediately with later, ”long tube” version, with 4km max. range.)

With no money on both French and Yugoslav side, the Hotchkiss deal was postponed indefinitely. In a way, it marked “the end of the era” of unquestionable French-Yugoslav alliance; it was the Nazi Germany who would more and more dictate the future Yugoslav economic, political - and eventually military developments as well.

(Couple of years after Yugoslavia made a much favorable deal with Czechoslovakia; the weapon selected for divisional AA defense was 15mm ZB-60 HMG. Eventually 13.2mm Hotchkiss was used by Yugoslav military, but only in a form of ammo for FN-Browning aircraft MGs)

This story is my modified version of more comprehensive text found in a book of Mile Bjelajac “Army of Yugoslavia, 1922-1935” (INIS, Belgrade, 1994)

Edge / Antic
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
MarkoZ
Member
Posts: 97
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 22:39
Location: Doncaster,England

Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by MarkoZ » 26 Nov 2009 18:46

Thanks for this excelent article Edge, I always wondered what the cancelled millitary loan was going to be used for. also interestingly my Uncle Marko had been in command of King Alexanders body guard up until 3 weeks before the ill fated trip to Marseille.

The Old generation who knew Uncle Marko always used to say that had he stayed in post the assasination would have been thwarted.

Having read a bit about Alexander he had been the subject of about 10 previous attempts on his life, but he would never listen to safety advice, I have a sneaking suspicion that Uncle Marko had got fed up of the high risk life and when the opportunity came along (the post of Equiery to the Queen of Yugoslavia) he jumped at the chance.

regards

User avatar
The Edge
Member
Posts: 4167
Joined: 28 Nov 2005 10:18
Location: Serbia

Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 27 Nov 2009 12:49

The whole book is full of similar texts, so if you have opportunity, it is still obatainable in Belgrade.

Regarding the fatalist attitude of Alexander - Yugoslav officials were horrified when they realised what kind of "security measures" French prepared and adviced the King not to parade himself before the assassins. Alexandar didn't listen them and some sources claim that he didn't even wear his special bullet-protective west. (Made by "Willkinson Sword Co." - it would not change the things greatly, because fatal shot was in the throat.)

Regards, Edge

User avatar
The Edge
Member
Posts: 4167
Joined: 28 Nov 2005 10:18
Location: Serbia

Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 02 Dec 2009 08:46

China was another 13.2mm Hotchkiss country-user with rather vague info about its service. It is certain that both Chinese Navy & Army used this design – beside this fact, almost nothing could be taken for sure. There are numerous classes of Chinese 1930s warships armed with “machine guns”, but what model and caliber – it is always unclear. For example, seaplane tenders Wei Sheng and Teh Sheng, ex-merchant ships built 1922 in Kiangnan Yard and modified for military service 1928-30, were armed with “four machine guns” – probably Hotchkiss ones. Same is possible for “Chu” class of torpedo-boats, made in Japan 1906-07, but slightly upgraded in 1930s (“four machine guns” also) and numerous river gunboats. Light cruiser Ning Hai, made in Japan 1932 were armed with eight single machine guns – another strong candidate, since Japanese license Hotchkiss production started in 1933 (Type 93). Its near-twin Ping Hai Lt. cruiser (completed 1935 at Kiangnan Dock) switched to 8x20mm, but enough space was found to place “four machine guns” also. http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?lang ... dtrida=400
Chinese also had numerous motor torpedo boats, armed with 18-inch torpedoes and two “machine guns” (one twin-mount?) made in Italy (MAS-type), Germany (Lürssen) and England (Thornycroft). Unfortunately, photos show them with no visible guns (probably a “delivery photos”, with boats sent to China without armament, to be equipped there), so it is not sure what type of machine guns they actually packed. (Whatever was available, I suppose.)
Chinese Army also used 13.2mm Hotchkiss machine guns, so it was naturally chosen also for main armament of imported Renault ZB light tanks. According to Wikipedia:

… in March 1936 twelve were ordered by China and four (few months later) by the Yunan province administration. The latter were delivered in October 1938, the former only in 1940, because of Japanese diplomatic pressure.
According to data I found, Renault also offered (unsuccessfully) another variant on same chassis, this time with twin gun capable for firing at high-elevation (effectively a SPAAG vehicle – rather an avant-garde solution for Japan’s air supremacy).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
The Edge
Member
Posts: 4167
Joined: 28 Nov 2005 10:18
Location: Serbia

Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 10 Dec 2009 10:51

Japan was by far the largest 13.2mm Hotchkiss HMG user – as a matter of fact, the total quantity of Hotchkiss HMGs in use with Japan was many times the number of all other user-states taken together.
Japan was one of the earliest users, too – first recorded connection with Hotchkiss HMG was at 27th April 1927, when representatives of Okura Manufacturing Corporation started first negotiation about the purchase of manufacturing rights. This means that Japanese Army/Navy officials saw this HMG even before, during early development stage.
What is strange here why so much time passed before Japan actually started the license production of Hotchkiss HMG, called Type 93 (1933). A number of facts indicate that Japan’s use of Hotchkiss started already in 1928-29 (Fubuki Class 1928, I-5 submarine & Tsubame minelayer 1929), so this 4 to 5 years interval is a very curious one. It seems some usual quarrel existed between Army & Navy officials, with Imperial Japanese Army eventually failed to order the domestic (license) model. Since Hotchkiss HMG was in widespread use by this time, the number of gun bought in France was probably a considerable one.

In Imperial Japanese Navy use Hotchkiss/Type 93 found a very broad use, ranging from the largest ships, as super-battleship Yamato (4 guns in 1941), via large fleet aircraft carriers as Akagi & Kaga (22 guns) to the smallest ones – one HMG at Shino-5 explosive (suicide) boat, plus the various base/depot installations. (List of ships that used these HMGs is actually so long that I simply lack a will strong enough to cope with it. :oops: ) At first, number of guns imitated the similar arrangements on French ships (two to four guns at destroyers, 6 to 8 at cruisers, 12 to 22 at aircraft carriers). However, already by 1936 Navy was aware of obvious limitations of 13.2mm HMG as prime short-distance AA weapon, so the more capable 25mm model (again a Hotchkiss one) was adopted (Type 96), making the IJN more far-sighted than the French one (unfortunately, not so far-sighted to adopt something like 37mm Rheinmetall by 1940).

The use of Type 93 HMG continued, however, practically at every kind of Navy vessel, on ground installation and by naval infantry units, but only as “second best” option. By 1944 the number of AA guns rise to outstanding levels, like 20+ of 25mm guns at destroyers, 40+ on cruisers and even more at battleships/carriers (up to 150 guns on Yamato!), but the quantity of nimble 13.2mm guns remained at 1930s level (usually the number found is four, but sometimes higher, up to ten). Someone might wonder – why bother to put few relatively weak machine-guns, beside 40 to 60 “real guns”? Sad true was that IJN encountered serious shortage of ammo for such large number of AA guns – every time when fleet was put at the sea, the AA ammo storages in naval bases remained empty. Ammo consumption of AA guns proved to be enormous, with the number of AA guns increased constantly, so ammo production was unable to hold the pace (soon the number of rounds for automatic AA guns was limited to 1000 rounds per barrel - at best).
The ammo shortage for 13.2mm caliber was less severe (production of Type 93 HMG reached 1,200 guns per month late in 1944!), so few guns with plenty of ammo was considered as valuable addition to larger guns (firing tracer ammo to distract attacking aircraft, for use at lesser-value targets, shooting practice, etc.) This weapon usually was found at various auxiliary ships (cargo ship Mayasan Maru, modified into landing craft, with twenty 13.2mm AAMGs), what was also the way to relieve some burden from standard 25mm gun demands.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
The Edge
Member
Posts: 4167
Joined: 28 Nov 2005 10:18
Location: Serbia

Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 10 Dec 2009 10:54

About the MG mounts, IJN used various single, twin and quadruple mount, although with its own preferences. To start with the most prominent, the four-gun mount was quite rare; light cruiser of Sendai and Nagara Classes had a quadruple mount in front of the bridge, but even them was removed late in 1942 and replaced with one more common twin (that was probably a weight-saving measure at upper structures for installation of radar equipment). Small number of four-gun mounts led me to suspicion that they were exclusively imported from France.
… quad 13 mm machine gun mount in front of the bridge was replaced by a twin 13mm machine gun mount. With the weight saved … Type 21 air search radar system was installed. (December 1942) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagara_class_cruiser

Twin gun was far more numerous, with their “prime time” somewhere in 1934-38, when they were main low-level defense at numerous ships. With 25mm guns coming at their own, putting these twin mounts became the way how to strengthen the AA defense with minimal effort, time and without much modification of existing designs (common practice in early 1942 – for example, the earlier short break of mentioned HIJMS Nagara:
11 April 1942: Arrives at Maizuru. Refit. Two twin Type 93 13-mm machine-guns are installed.
12 April 1942: Drydocked.
24 April 1942: Undocked.
4 May 1942: Departs Maizuru.
http://www.combinedfleet.com/nagara_t.htm

Along the Japanese variant of ubiquitous R4 (fixed) mount, the tripod version for land use was also produced and used by both IJN naval infantry and IJA (who accepted the surplus Navy production of Type 93 HMG due to the lack of their own light AA guns – 20mm Type 98 & Type 2; according to the info from http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_13mm-76_mg.htm “some 1494 guns were available to the Japanese Army towards the end of the war”).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Return to “France 1919-1945”