Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

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The Edge
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 10 Dec 2009 10:58

By far, the most numerous were single mounts. As an early (earliest?) user of Hotchkiss HMG, Japan also picked two early mount developments – simple tripod infantry mount (not the later, elaborate R1 AA defense model), used mainly by land forces - and single pedestal fixed mount (again, elaborate R2 fixed model was not adopted), the most common naval mount – as both simple and cheap, it was ideally suited for the most of IJN needs. In 1943-44 these simple mounts were the main production model, placed on various available spaces on ships where bigger 25mm guns would be either over-confined or heavy, especially at torpedo or explosive (suicide) boats, or given to IJA to strengthen its AA defense.
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 10 Dec 2009 11:04

Beside the mentioned early mounts, single-mount Hotchkiss HMGs in use of Japan also had one other old-fashioned feature – combination of pistol grip and the shoulder rest. (As a matter of fact, Japan was the only user-state of such variant, AFIK.) One of photos below shows the mixture of “everything old” - infantry tripod mount (with wheels probably placed somewhere behind), pistol grip & shoulder rest combination (only a strip-feed feature is missing :? ) in use by the IJA during late 1930s war with China – something seen only at advertising material taken during Hotchkiss HMG late development stages. Photos of two USA captured guns show similar appearance (similar tripod in elevated AA position, pedestal fixed mount), so either the Japanese kept these archaic features at newly produced Type 93 HMGs, or the purchase of original Hotchkiss guns from France in 1928-1932 period was large indeed. (Or both? :roll: )
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 16 Dec 2009 12:43

During 1930 many nations tried heavy machine guns as armament of light (cavalry) armored fighting vehicles. Japan was one of them and – not surprisingly – Hotchkiss 13.2mm design was chosen for this purpose.

Previous Japanese Army machine guns were all designed by Kijiro Nambu and based on Hotchkiss design, but modified in accordance with designer’s own ideas (essentially downgraded). When the new big machine gun was needed, again the procedure was the same one: to copy the basis & modify details. This made a design process a swift one – not bothering with license rights, Army went ahead the Navy model for a year, introducing its Type 92 tank machine gun in 1932. (This model actually went into the service in 1934. - http://www.ww2technik.de/sites/panzer/typ%2093%20mg.htm )

The only vehicle which used the 13.2mm tank HMG was “Combat Car” Type 92 (typical 1930s product, but also the advanced one, using partly a welded armor), made for Cavalry. http://ww2armor.jexiste.fr/Files/Axis/A ... Type92.htm (With early Type 92 tank models, not all vehicles had the “big” Type 92 MG, many were armed with 6.5mm guns only - see photo in the middle)

Both the light tank and its main armament had a short career, however (only 167 specimens of Type 92 cavalry tanks were made); as we have seen from Polish example, 13.2mm gun was a rather poor anti-armor performer, so IJA adopted the Type 95 light tank (armed with 37mm gun) as standard equipment for armored formations and, after the introduction of 20mm Type 98 light AA gun (many nations called 20mm automatic weapons also “heavy machine guns”), completely lost further interest in 13.2mm caliber. (Even the latest Type 92 tanks tried 20mm gun as replacement.)
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 18 Dec 2009 11:21

For the end of „Japanese Chapter“, one very exotic use of 13.2mm Type 93 (Hotchkiss) HMG. It was a main armament of Type 4 “Ka-Tsu” amphibious tracked vehicle, used in the same fashion as .50 Cal Brownings on LVT series. However, Japanese had also some ideas of their own, resulting with the only torpedo-armed vehicle AFIK. :D

Data: http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/ka-tsu.htm
Story: http://www.combinedfleet.com/U-GO.htm
Color 3D: http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-V ... -KaTsu.htm
Tech. Drawing: http://henk.fox3000.com/ostja/katsu-0.jpg
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by carius » 18 Dec 2009 15:28

Japanese Type 93 MG
(From "Japanese Infantry Weapons")
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 21 Dec 2009 08:39

Great drawings, thanks! :D

(I found this Russian drawing below - naval R4b mount - just not large/quality enough :( )
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 22 Dec 2009 10:13

Whilst still at Far East, another interesting French use of 13.2mm Hotchkiss Mle 1930 HMG (see photo below).

Usually wrongly labeled as “20mm Oerlikon”, photo shows one of improvised AA vehicles used by motorized AA platoon of Détachement Motorisé du Tonkin (attached to the 9e Régiment d'Infanterie Coloniale) during French-Tai War of 1940-41. This modification proved to be a success, what led to several Ford trucks being lightly armoured by the artillery workshops and permanently armed with similar Hotchkiss HMG after the Franco-Thai border clashes.

These "engins blindés aménagés" (sadly, no photo) served with the Division du Tonkin until the March 1945, when they were incorporated into Groupement Motorisé du Tonkin (based in Tong and commanded by Captain Fournier), along various remaining armoured vehicles in Indochina; they were subsequently destroyed during the fighting that followed the Japanese take-over on 9 March 1945.

More info: http://france1940.free.fr/vichy/tk_indo.html
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 22 Dec 2009 13:26

Back to the French naval photos – can’t resist the feeling that lot of 13.2mm Hotchkiss HMG crewmen were amateur photographers! :D
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by carius » 22 Dec 2009 14:14

One from Wikipedia
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by Sturm78 » 13 Jan 2010 12:55

Hi all,

An image from Ebay:

Sturm78
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 13 Jan 2010 13:34

Thanks Sturm 78 for this very interesting photo! :D

Carius, the last photo is one from Wikipedia series - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Hotchkiss_Model_1930

They show two items found in Israel (museum/memorial). The origins of these guns is not known to me :? , so this is a call for help from someone who can read this museum plates. :idea: (My theory - captured guns, ex-French/ex-Syrian)

Another great photo was found by Carius: :D (It was just placed on "wrong" AHF topic)
http://forum.axishistory.com/download/f ... ?id=192151

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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by carius » 19 Mar 2010 11:17

From eBay.de
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 28 Mar 2010 14:04

Two more IJN Type 93 photos from AHF Japan Section:
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by Sturm78 » 06 May 2010 11:53

Hi all,

A image from Ebay: a captured 13.2mm Hotchkiss AA twin MG

Regards Sturm78
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by phil12 » 24 Sep 2010 22:39

Some more informations : The idea of a medium caliber MG germinate at Hotchkiss’s in the early 1900.
The société Française des Munitions was in charge of the ammunition project , initially a 12 mm caliber with a cartridge ,sort of scaled up version of the German 8 mm 1888. I jump over several modification , and a long silence up to WWI . The project was reopened after WWI using a copy of the 13 mm german antitank ball , modification of the case profile , of the primer new caliber ..13.2 … up to January 1925 , adoption by Hotchkiss of the final project
In 1925 , SFM did not own the production capacity for the manufacture of the new cartridge , Kynock Birmingham was then contacted to start the first benches as she was already manufacturing similar calibers ( .50 BWG and Vickers )

No information is available on the the early MG but I am pretty sure it is simply the enlarge version of the 8 mm Hotchkiss without modification

The second main information: The MG was officially adopted by the French navy under 1930 model. In 1932 , due to fast erosion of the barrel rifling, it was asked to S.F.M. , Manurhin and AVE ( the 3 main cartridge plants in charge of the manufacture of 13.2 ctgs ) to find a new projectile less eroding . Among the different projects , one was retained , SFM version, using a large grooved ball but , for manufacture technical reasons , it was necessary to shorten the case neck length. This version was adopted officially under the 1935 model. If you read French, I have the exact explanation on MCollect.com , I will give you the thread.
The two cartridges are interchangeable and the manufacture of both versions continued up to the war.
AND , as it is often said , the case shortening has no relation with the danger of confusion with .50 BWG .
If you need more informations ...

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