Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

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The Edge
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 10 Nov 2010 13:24

phil12 wrote:If you need more informations ...
YES :D

My main interest in Hotchkiss ammo design is what was the rationale behind placing different caliber bullet in existing Browning case.
1) I guess that Browning case was adopted as time & money saving measure (with later commercial benefits - same designs could be modified to different ammo; example FN Browning aircraft Hv. MG in 13.2mm Hotchkiss caliber).
2) Caliber French chose not because they "wanted to be different" (as one eminent ammo expert suggested :lol: ) but because of what they wanted to achieve: variuous nations experimented with .50 Cal rounds with HE filling, only to find that such small ammount of explosive have negligible effect (Italians eventually adopted such ammo). However, FN-developed HE ammo in 13.2mm was rather successful in late 1930s. Since French developed the MG originally as future aircraft weapon (mounted between engine cylinder banks), my guess is that they chose the size of bullet as first practicable one to be used with HE filling.

Cheers, Edge

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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by phil12 » 23 Nov 2010 22:43

First , there are NO relations between a .50 BWG case and a 13.2 H case both designed by private arm companies and the original idea to make a medium MG caliber is from Hotchkiss. The 13.2 case is not a copy of the .50BWG , I own all the original factory drawings (Hotchkiss and SFM) relative to the evolution of the study and even if the measures are sometimes close , you can’t introduce a .50 BWG in a Hotchkiss chamber !
The original Hotchkiss idea was to make an infantry MG , initial loadings were O, AP ,T and APT ; an incendiary bullet was also existing but for light field vehicles .The idea to use it as a board MG appeared only in 1936 , It is only in 1936 that the French ammunition factories are contacted both by navy and Hotchkiss to study HE , Incendiary, Hv E… .loads.
FN Herstal , after having bought to Hotchkiss rights to use the 13.2 H caliber in their BWG has designed her own loads including a HE shell loaded with 2.5 gr of cristallised Tetryl and primed with 1 gr of mercury fulminate . This shell was very sensitive , the hit with a sheet of paper was sufficient to cause the explosion. The design and operation were good but the price of manufacture had no relation with the outcome ! The German made their own design of the 13.2 H HE , using of course the Hotchkiss case but loaded with their 13 mm board shell ( MG 131). Due to the length of the 13 mm shell, the lacquered steel case was shortened to obtain the right length for the use in captured AA Hotchkiss MG’s
It is in 1938 that the French Air Force decides to use the 13.2 H caliber for MG’s onboard. Three types of MGs were tested , the air cooled Browning , the Levallois project and a Hotchkiss belt fed. The project stopped because of the war !
H.A.N.D.
phil

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Manuferey
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by Manuferey » 23 Jan 2011 16:40

Is this a twin Hotchkiss on a naval mount?

Image

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carius
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by carius » 13 Feb 2011 07:45

Hi all!Here one from ebay.de

George
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by carius » 23 Mar 2011 05:51

One shot from ebay.de

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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by Manuferey » 23 Mar 2011 23:16

R4 naval mount.

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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by Sturm78 » 18 May 2011 10:39

Hi all,

Another image from Ebay:

Sturm78
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by carius » 01 Jul 2011 11:33

Quad naval

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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by carius » 04 Jan 2012 13:17

In romanian service

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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by carius » 27 Apr 2012 09:39

From ebay.de

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YC Chen
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by YC Chen » 14 Jul 2012 05:18

Also used by the Chinese army during WW2...
This one is kept in the military museum in Beijing.
There's also a wartime photo showing a single mount one. Hotchkiss guns were seldom used by the central army, but used extensively by provincial force of Yunnan. At that time they were called "super-heavy machineguns" and were mainly used as an anti-tank weapon(!), they were proved effective against Japanese tankettes.
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The Edge
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by The Edge » 28 Jul 2012 23:35

Thank you very much for these photos, YC Chen! :D

China is already mentioned as Hotchkiss 13.2mm HMG user - http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3&start=45 - but any additional info is most welcomed! :)
(For example, did it have Chinese "Type 30-something" marking?)

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YC Chen
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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by YC Chen » 29 Aug 2012 10:16

Hmm... During the ROC period, "Type XX(number)" designations were only given to weapons manufactured in China but never to imported weapons. However there is still possibility that Hotchkiss 13.2mm was given a designation like that, but this is only possible if China had a project to produce copies of this gun in China, for which I haven't found any proof.

Many foreign weapons were intended to be produced in China during 30s and 40s but later abandoned(like Bofors mountain guns, Madsen 20mm guns, etc), and sometimes(although uncommon), a "Type XX" designation was given even before the weapon went into mass production.

I don't think large warships of ROC navy ever used Hotchkiss 13.2mm(not sure about the torpedo boats). Most common HMG onboard Chinese warships before the war was 7.92mm "Shanshijie" HMG, a Chinese version of Browning machine gun.

And for the tanks - I don't think provincial government of Yunnan ever bought Renault ZB, I think there were only 12 Renault ZBs, half with 37mm guns and half with Hotchkiss 13.2mm, all bought by the central government and delivered in late 1939. However, Yunnan provincial government did bought some converted Renault UEs with a Hotchkiss 13.2mm in a casemate(I'm not sure about the number, but certainly less than 10), and they didn't receive them until 1944.

Your following statement is very interesting : "According to data I found, Renault also offered (unsuccessfully) another variant on same chassis, this time with twin gun capable for firing at high-elevation (effectively a SPAAG vehicle – rather an avant-garde solution for Japan’s air supremacy)." Could you please tell me what your source is? :)

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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by Manuferey » 26 Feb 2013 01:59

A superbe picture from the famous photographer, Robert Capa, of a Hotchkiss on R3b mount on the French-spanish border in November 1944 with a French Army crew (if you look closely, you'll see two soldiers):

Image
FRANCE. November, 1944. French soldier manning an anti-aircraft gun.
Image Reference: NYC97929 (BOB1944016W00002/C33)
© Robert Capa © International Center of Photography
http://mediastore2.magnumphotos.com/Cor ... C97929.jpg

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Re: Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

Post by Manuferey » 05 May 2013 13:53

Pictures of the quad CAQ version used by the Germans. Does anyone know the German “beute” designation?

1) AA defense of MKB Cabanes (Southern France) – (The picture belongs to edex34110 and was posted originally here: http://atf40.forumculture.net/t3936p15-404-radca )

Image

2) Unknown location, most probably Southern France as well, possibly near Toulon. Picture from expired ebay auction.

Image

Emmanuel

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