French Air Force disposition on 10 May 1940

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rbannon01
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Re: French Air Force disposition on 10 May 1940

Post by rbannon01 » 07 Jan 2011 03:58

I've never read exactly which "parts" were in such short supply. But in most everything I've read on the subject "shortage of spare parts" is always mentioned. I had assumed it was engines and engine components for planes already in service. Mainly the M.S.406s and some older type bombers.
Bottlenecks and shortages for planes just begining to come of off assembly lines would be natural until the factory had time to smooth out the production process. So that's understandable.
But, for planes that had already been produced in considerable numbers? That seemed odd.

kender
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Re: French Air Force disposition on 10 May 1940

Post by kender » 07 Jan 2011 08:23

When you prepare to shut down a production, you begin to stop spare/equipment production line before.

You just do some mathematic to have a little stock.

takata_1940
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Re: French Air Force disposition on 10 May 1940

Post by takata_1940 » 07 Jan 2011 15:36

Hi,
rbannon01 wrote:I've never read exactly which "parts" were in such short supply. But in most everything I've read on the subject "shortage of spare parts" is always mentioned. I had assumed it was engines and engine components for planes already in service. Mainly the M.S.406s and some older type bombers.
Bottlenecks and shortages for planes just begining to come of off assembly lines would be natural until the factory had time to smooth out the production process. So that's understandable.
But, for planes that had already been produced in considerable numbers? That seemed odd.
From what is left of the reports, it is obvious that the weakest spot of the French Airforce was the logistics. Now, it is hard to tell what was the real cause as the battle went in a way that the logistical system was not designed to cope with. Parts were lacking everywhere the combat aircraft stock had to be maintained for operational service, and when parts were available, specialists able to fix them were most of the time lacking also.

Some of the problems were caused because some aircraft were either too old (kept too long in service) or too new (hurried in service). Lacking parts may have been available somewhere in rear depots but not where they were needed the most (in front-line units where only casual maintenance service was planned). The disruption of the communications system after the attack, evacuation of airbases, loss of many dumps, the constant rebasing of flying units, most also flying different models, hardly helped with the general ability to maintain those aircraft. Everything added together, as well as the inability to recover most of the damaged aircraft that crash-landed in the countryside, caused a huge waste of flying ressources.

The case of the Morane 406 is a good example as this aircraft was supposed to be used mainly as a second line advanced trainer at the time of the attack. Their engines had suffered an unexpected wear after a shorter time in first line squadrons than planned (added to this exceptionally harsh winter induced problems) and no replacement was scheduled to take this factor into account (when this was discovered, it was already too late to remedy it). Other aircraft had been produced only in small batches as "transition" without large stocks of parts but their "transitional" period of service lasted up to the point that some had to be scraped for maintaining the others.

Overall, the biggest issue with parts was due to the large number of aircraft types (and engine) that were kept flying in operational units but in very small numbers.

S~
Olivier

rbannon01
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Re: French Air Force disposition on 10 May 1940

Post by rbannon01 » 08 Jan 2011 22:10

Good answer, Thanks.

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Graham Clayton
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Re: French Air Force disposition on 10 May 1940

Post by Graham Clayton » 08 Jan 2011 22:56

Vuillemin, the French Air Force commander had ordered the "strategy of economical employment" soon after the outbreak of war in September 1939. It seems that the French philosophy was to have a air war of attrition, and for this reason only a fraction of the available aircraft were mobilised, with the majority of the aircraft in the rear.

Karl-Heinz Frieser, John T Greenwood, "The Blitzkrieg Legend: the 1940 campaign in the West", Naval Institute Press, 2005, page 342
"Air superiority is a condition for all operations, at sea, in land, and in the air." - Air Marshal Arthur Tedder.

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Bronsky
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Re: French Air Force disposition on 10 May 1940

Post by Bronsky » 09 Jan 2011 19:08

Graham Clayton wrote:Vuillemin, the French Air Force commander had ordered the "strategy of economical employment" soon after the outbreak of war in September 1939. It seems that the French philosophy was to have a air war of attrition, and for this reason only a fraction of the available aircraft were mobilised, with the majority of the aircraft in the rear.

Karl-Heinz Frieser, John T Greenwood, "The Blitzkrieg Legend: the 1940 campaign in the West", Naval Institute Press, 2005, page 342
Frieser's book is very good, but its chapters about the air strengths are entirely drawn from a couple of articles by Kirkland which are an exercize in bad accounting. I've already written rebuttals elsewhere, and maybe one day I'll get around to writing a detailed article though it never quite seems worth the effort.

Here's something I wrote earlier, not the best message but the one that came up first with a web search:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.hist ... 3098?hl=en

Short version: Kirkland is every French aircraft, including trainers, and comparing that figure to German operational front line strength. He compares the percentage of French fighters in the French inventory that were deployed against Germany on May 10th, to the percentage of RAF squadrons that contributed planes to the fighting at some point of the campaign to conclude that the RAF was more committed than the armée de l'Air. Needless to say, comparing like with like gets the French being more committed to the British, which isn't particularly surprising given how they were fighting over their home territory.

The French air force was a mess in 1940, there is no need for the kind of accounting legerdemain that Kirkland indulges in to show that. Unfortunately, all these articles do is bring the signal to noise ratio a little further down.

musec
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Re: French Air Force disposition on 10 May 1940

Post by musec » 27 Aug 2011 14:50

Hello Olivier,

Your post of Jan 20th 2010 listing aircraft in Metropolitan France and in french overseas territories made very interesting reading. I notice that quantities are given for C.445 ,C.635 and C.714. However no figures are provided for Caudron aircraft used in lesser quantities. Am I correct in believing that these would all be subsumed under the miscellaneous totals?
I am interested in totals for Caudron aircraft used in smaller quantiities. I have Andre Hauet's two volumes on Caudron aircraft but they are not very informative in this regard. Have you access to any figures for other Caudron aircraft and/ or other impressed aircraft used in 1939/1940?

Regards,

Clint

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Bronsky
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Re: French Air Force disposition on 10 May 1940

Post by Bronsky » 01 Sep 2011 11:05

What aircraft types are you interested in? A lot of older types were still hanging around in bases, though the air force wouldn't always keep a very precise track of them. For one thing, some were no longer flyable.

I don't have time to check if I have the information you seek, but as a partial answer to your question from a spreadsheet I made a long time ago, the Axis counted the following aircraft types in Metropolitan Vichy French airfields after the armistice:

237 Caudron 275 Luciole
26 Caudron 400/410 Phalène
15 Caudron 480 Frégate
40 Caudron 600 Aiglon
11 Caudron 510 Pélican
8 Caudron 690

14 North Morane 60
13 Autogyres
8 Maillet 20
124 Salmson Cri-Cri D.6
3 Salmson Perygane

musec
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Re: French Air Force disposition on 10 May 1940

Post by musec » 02 Sep 2011 16:17

Hello Bronsky.

Thanks for the reply. I would be interested in all the types you list. With regard to your speadsheet, does it list the units with which the machines served. If so I wonder if you would be prepared to forward a copy?

Do the machines you list as Maillet 20 actually include any Maillet 20 or are they all Maillet 201?

Regards,

Clint

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Bronsky
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Re: French Air Force disposition on 10 May 1940

Post by Bronsky » 05 Sep 2011 15:06

What follows is copied from my spreadsheet. It is incomplete, because there was a version in which I typed everything, but not on this hard drive. The Maillets were all 201s as far as I can tell.

Each line reads: Base where the plane was at the time of the armistice / aircraft type / serial number (if any) / parent unit (if known).
Often, the unit that the plane belonged to wasn't known at the time, and therefore doesn't figure in this list. There are books that have worked on different types and which have managed to fill the gaps, but I'm not aware of a comprehensive listing and my own work didn't go that far.

Tarbes Caudron 251 T251 D Section d'avions de liaison
Auch Caudron C230 10/6528 F.ALBU RP Ecole du Blanc
Brignoles - Fayence Caudron C270 Luciole 86 RP
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C270 Luciole F.APPE RP
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C270 Luciole F.APSH RP
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C272 Luciole F.AMYG D E.E.P. 44
Auch Caudron C272 Luciole 7979 F.AMHB RP Ecole du Blanc
Carcassonne Caudron C275 Luciole F.ARVC D B.A. Tarbes
Carcassonne Caudron C275 Luciole F.AQGS D B.A. Tarbes
Clermont-Ferrand - ARAA Caudron C275 Luciole F-AMTH RP E.A.A. 301
Clermont-Ferrand - ARAA Caudron C275 Luciole F-AMSI RP E.A.A. 301
St-Cyr l'Ecole, repliée à Oloron Caudron C275 Luciole 0 D E.A.A. 303
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 759 W.073 D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 7043 F-ARYM D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 7558 F-AQTN D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 7587 F-AQGR D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 7610 W.961 D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 7708 F-AQQN D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 7709 F-AQQO D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 7886 F-ARJQ D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 7908 F-ARKM D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 7924 W.192 D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 7925 F-ARKZ D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 7939 F-ARLN D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 7963 W.231 D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 7972 F-ARMU D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 7996 F-ARNU D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 8000 F-ARMS D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 8013 W.281 D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 8035 F-ARYE D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 8036 W.304 D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 8042 F-ARYL D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 8056 W.342 D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 8064 F-ARKI D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 8086 F-ARYV D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 8100 Y.368 D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 8135 Q.303 D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 8142 Q.310 D E.E.P. 39
Tarbes Caudron C275 Luciole 8143 Q.313 D E.E.P. 39
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7574 W.054 RP E.E.P. 40
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7652 F.AQLM RP E.E.P. 40
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7932 W.200 RP E.E.P. 40
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7892 D E.E.P. 41 Montauban
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole Q.317 D E.E.P. 41 Montauban
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole W.139 RP E.E.P. 41 Montauban
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole W.139 RP E.E.P. 41 Montauban
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole Q.318 D E.E.P. 41 Montauban
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole W.964 D E.E.P. 41 Montauban
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole W.198 D E.E.P. 41 Montauban
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole W.318 D E.E.P. 41 Montauban
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole W.372 D E.E.P. 41 Montauban
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole W.325 RP E.E.P. 41 Montauban
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole W.199 RP E.E.P. 41 Montauban
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole W.148 E.E.P. 41 Montauban
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole W.199 RP E.E.P. 41 Montauban
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole W.325 RP E.E.P. 41 Montauban
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole Q.314 D E.E.P. 41 Montauban
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole Q.316 D E.E.P. 41 Montauban
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7478 RP E.E.P. 42
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7592 F.AROT RP E.E.P. 42
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7659 W.094 RP E.E.P. 42
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7672 RP E.E.P. 42
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7692 W.124 RP E.E.P. 42
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7700 F.AQQF RP E.E.P. 42
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7715 RP E.E.P. 42
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7717 RP E.E.P. 42
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7904 RP E.E.P. 42
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7939 RP E.E.P. 42
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7944 W.212 RP E.E.P. 42
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7981 F.ARNE RP E.E.P. 42
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 8004 RP E.E.P. 42
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole W.246 RP E.E.P. 42
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7485 F.APLM D E.E.P. 44
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7650 F.AQLK D E.E.P. 44
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7887 F.ARJL D E.E.P. 44
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7946 F.ARLU D E.E.P. 44
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7955 F.ARME D E.E.P. 44
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7960 W.228 D E.E.P. 44
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 7966 F.ARMP D E.E.P. 44
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 8074 F.ARXS D E.E.P. 44
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 8081 F.ARVA D E.E.P. 44
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 8106 W.374 D E.E.P. 44
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 8121 D E.E.P. 44
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 8123 D E.E.P. 44
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 8125 D E.E.P. 44
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole ARMQ RP E.E.P. 45
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole ASRF RP E.E.P. 45
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole W.373 RP E.E.P. 45
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole ARMD RP E.E.P. 45
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole APLB RP E.E.P. 45
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole AQPL D E.E.P. 45
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole ARJT RP E.E.P. 45
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole ARNN RP E.E.P. 45
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole W.038 RP E.E.P. 45
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole AFLB RP E.E.P. 45
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole ARJI D E.E.P. 45
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole W.135 D E.E.P. 45
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole W.033 RP E.E.P. 45
Albi - Castres Caudron C275 Luciole 7657 W.092 RF E.E.P. 46
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 4656 W.091 D E.E.P. 47
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 7547 W.028 D E.E.P. 47
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 7568 W.048 D E.E.P. 47
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 7585 W.065 D E.E.P. 47
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 7677 W.104 RP E.E.P. 47
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 7687 W.112 D E.E.P. 47
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 7914 W.182 D E.E.P. 47
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 7921 W.129 RF E.E.P. 47
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 7952 W.220 RF E.E.P. 47
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 8003 W.271 RP E.E.P. 47
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 8092 W.360 RP E.E.P. 47
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 8136 Q.304 D E.E.P. 47
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 8137 Q.305 D E.E.P. 47
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole W.262 RP E.E.P. 47
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 7915 W.183 RP E.E.P. Graulhet
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 7922 W.190 RP E.E.P. Graulhet
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 8021 W.289 RP E.E.P. Graulhet
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 8052 W.320 RP E.E.P. Graulhet
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 8107 W.375 RP E.E.P. Graulhet
Valence - Espalion Caudron C275 Luciole 7476 ARSI D E.P. 24
Valence - Espalion Caudron C275 Luciole 7876 W.369 D E.P. 24
Valence - Espalion Caudron C275 Luciole 7984 ARJA D E.P. 24
Valence - Espalion Caudron C275 Luciole 7991 ARMA D E.P. 24
Valence - Espalion Caudron C275 Luciole 8001 ARRP D E.P. 24
Valence - Espalion Caudron C275 Luciole 8024 ARVI D E.P. 24
Valence - Espalion Caudron C275 Luciole 7211-29 APLO D E.P. 24
Valence - Espalion Caudron C275 Luciole AOF4 D E.P. 24
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7424 W.945 D E.P. 32
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7431 F.APLT D E.P. 32
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7483 W.022 D E.P. 32
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7572 W.052 D E.P. 32
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7573 F.ASCD D E.P. 32
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7576 F.AQGG D E.P. 32
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7612 W.944 D E.P. 32
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7671 F.AQPB D E.P. 32
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7689 W.114 D E.P. 32
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7891 F.ARJF D E.P. 32
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7917 F.ARKQ D E.P. 32
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7927 F.ARLB D E.P. 32
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7990 F.ARNO RP E.P. 32
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 8050 F.ARVT D E.P. 32
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 8066 F.ARXK D E.P. 32
Périgueux Caudron C275 Luciole 7929 RP E.P. 33
Périgueux Caudron C275 Luciole 8037 RP E.P. 33
Calvi Caudron C275 Luciole F.APHJ D E.P. Ajaccio et S.A.L.
Calvi Caudron C275 Luciole F.AQPN D E.P. Ajaccio et S.A.L.
Calvi Caudron C275 Luciole F.ARNK D E.P. Ajaccio et S.A.L.
Calvi Caudron C275 Luciole W.339 RF E.P. Ajaccio et S.A.L.
Calvi Caudron C275 Luciole W.059 D E.P. Ajaccio et S.A.L.
Calvi Caudron C275 Luciole F.AQPM RF E.P. Ajaccio et S.A.L.
Calvi Caudron C275 Luciole W.340 D E.P. Ajaccio et S.A.L.
Calvi Caudron C275 Luciole F.ARNI D E.P. Ajaccio et S.A.L.
Calvi Caudron C275 Luciole F.AQGK RF E.P. Ajaccio et S.A.L.
Calvi Caudron C275 Luciole F.APBL RF E.P. Ajaccio et S.A.L.
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7706 F.AQQL D Ecole 32, viennent de l'école 28 repliée
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7909 F.ARKI D Ecole 32, viennent de l'école 28 repliée
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7918 F.ARKR D Ecole 32, viennent de l'école 28 repliée
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7956 F.ARMF D Ecole 32, viennent de l'école 28 repliée
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 7980 F.ARNE D Ecole 32, viennent de l'école 28 repliée
Moissac Caudron C275 Luciole 8014 F.ARSI D Ecole 32, viennent de l'école 28 repliée
Auch Caudron C275 Luciole 7464 W.003 RP Ecole du Blanc
Auch Caudron C275 Luciole 7562 F.AQFR RP Ecole du Blanc
Auch Caudron C275 Luciole 7705 F.AQQK RP Ecole du Blanc
Auch Caudron C275 Luciole 7707 F.AQQM RP Ecole du Blanc
Auch Caudron C275 Luciole 7935 W.203 RP Ecole du Blanc
Auch Caudron C275 Luciole 7979 W.247 RP Ecole du Blanc
Auch Caudron C275 Luciole 8017 F.ARSL RP Ecole du Blanc
Auch Caudron C275 Luciole 8082 W.350 RP Ecole du Blanc
Auch Caudron C275 Luciole 8116 W.384 RP Ecole du Blanc
Auch Caudron C275 Luciole 8117 W.385 RP Ecole du Blanc
Auch Caudron C275 Luciole 8134 Q.302 RP Ecole du Blanc
Auch Caudron C275 Luciole 8138 Q.306 RP Ecole du Blanc
Auch Caudron C275 Luciole 8139 Q.307 RP Ecole du Blanc
Auch Caudron C275 Luciole 8140 Q.308 RP Ecole du Blanc
Auch Caudron C275 Luciole 7599/25 F.AQHE RP Ecole du Blanc
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 8046 F-ARVP RP Inconnu
Albi - E.E.P. 47 Caudron C275 Luciole 8108 W.376 D Inconnu
Auch Caudron C275 Luciole 7969 F.ARMS RP Inconnu
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C275 Luciole 7606 RP Parc
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C275 Luciole 7649 RP Parc
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C275 Luciole 7994 F.ADL5 RP Parc
Albi - Castres Caudron C275 Luciole 7462 W.001 D
Albi - Castres Caudron C275 Luciole 7651 AQLL D
Albi - Castres Caudron C275 Luciole 7686 AQPQ D
Albi - Castres Caudron C275 Luciole 7894 W.163 D
Albi - Castres Caudron C275 Luciole 7916 ARKP D
Albi - Castres Caudron C275 Luciole 7936 W.204 D
Albi - Castres Caudron C275 Luciole 8070 ARXO D
Albi - Castres Caudron C275 Luciole 8090 W.358 D
Albi - Castres Caudron C275 Luciole 8091 ARYK D
Albi - Castres Caudron C275 Luciole 8098 ARYR D
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C275 Luciole 8078 F.ARXX RP
Bergerac Caudron C275 Luciole 7975 F.ARMZ RF
Limoges Caudron C275 Luciole 7684 W-109 RP
Limoges Caudron C275 Luciole 8076 F-AQGL RP
Limoges Caudron C275 Luciole 104-103 F-MMM RF
Pau Caudron C275 Luciole F.AOPC D
Pau Caudron C275 Luciole F.AOPQ D
Pau Caudron C275 Luciole F.ANAH D
Lézignan Caudron C400 Phalène 15 F-ANTZ D 36e Escadre
Lézignan Caudron C400 Phalène 6809 F-AMIY RP 36e Escadre
Clermont-Ferrand - ARAA Caudron C400 Phalène 6867 RP E.A.A. 301
Albi - Castres Caudron C400 Phalène 6886 F.ANJH D E.E.P. 46
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C400 Phalène F.ANLT D Groupe de Protection Bordeaux
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C400 Phalène F.ANND RP Groupe I/55
Auch Caudron C400 Phalène 7069 F.ANTN RP Section Sanitaire
Albi - E.E.P. n°47 Caudron C400 Phalène 7298 F.AQQE D
Albi - E.E.P. n°47 Caudron C400 Phalène F.ANCM RF
Limoges Caudron C400 Phalène 6768 M-045 D
Pau Caudron C400 Phalène 0 F.APDP D
Pau Caudron C400 Phalène 4 T.004 D
Pau Caudron C400 Phalène F.AMIQ D
Moissac Caudron C410 Super Phalène 6771 X.082 D Ecole 32
Lézignan Caudron C441 Goéland 8397 T-943 RP B.A. Pau
Lézignan Caudron C441 Goéland 7152 T-963 D
Lézignan Caudron C441 Goéland 9010 F-484 RP
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C445 Goéland 0 F.482 D 19e Groupement
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C445 Goéland 0 T.486 D 1ère D.A.
Carcassonne Caudron C445 Goéland F.APYU D 2e R.A.
Istres Caudron C445 Goéland 25 T.889 RP D.E. B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C445 Goéland 47 T.911 RP D.E. B.A. Istres
Pau Caudron C445 Goéland 11 T.875 D E.M. 3e RA
Pau Caudron C445 Goéland 235 F.574 D E.M. 3e RA
Pau Caudron C445 Goéland 89 T.953 D E.M. Salon
Salon Caudron C445 Goéland 73 T.937 RF E.M.S.
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C445 Goéland F.470 D Escadre instruction Aulnat
Pau Caudron C445 Goéland 22 P.886 D G.A.O. 522
Pau Caudron C445 Goéland 119 P.108 D G.A.O. 522
Pau Caudron C445 Goéland 125 P.114 D G.A.O. 522
Pau Caudron C445 Goéland 174 P.163 D G.A.O. 522
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C445 Goéland 8989 T.463 D Groupe I/55
Tarbes Caudron C445 Goéland 8997 F471 D Groupement 4
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C445 Goéland 6 T.251 D Inconnu
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C445 Goéland 8990 T.454 D Inconnu
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C445 Goéland 9003 F.477 D Inconnu
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C445 Goéland 9193 0 D Inconnu
Périgueux Caudron C445 Goéland F.488 D Maison Caudron
Périgueux Caudron C445 Goéland F.489 D Maison Caudron
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C445 Goéland 8405 F.ARTA D Maréchal Pétain
Pau Caudron C445 Goéland 7541 F.APYS D S.C.T. Aér.
Istres Caudron C445 Goéland 16 T.880 RP V. de F. d'Istres
Avignon - Chateaublanc Caudron C445 Goéland 76 D
Bron Caudron C445 Goéland 8920 P-154 RF
Limoges Caudron C445 Goéland 21 RP
Limoges Caudron C445 Goéland 27 RP
Limoges Caudron C445 Goéland 42 RP
Lézignan Caudron C510 Pélican 6994 RP (illisible)
Lézignan Caudron C510 Pélican 6995 F-ANNNI RP B.A. Castres
Périgueux Caudron C510 Pélican F.APOK DT E.P. civile
Périgueux Caudron C510 Pélican F.ANTP D Maison Caudron
Albi - Castres Caudron C510 Pélican 0 F.ANNQ D S.A.S. I/101
Albi - Castres Caudron C510 Pélican 6993 F.ANNL D S.A.S. I/101
Albi - Castres Caudron C510 Pélican 7344 F.AOYI RP S.A.S. I/101
Châteauroux Caudron C510 Pélican 0 RP
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C600 Aiglon 8155 D 19e Groupement
Hautes-Pyrénées Caudron C600 Aiglon 103 D E.E.P. 39
Carcassonne Caudron C600 Aiglon F.APCF D E.P. n°20
Auch Caudron C600 Aiglon 7191 W.924 RP Ecole d'Agen
Auch Caudron C600 Aiglon 7193 F.ANYQ RP Ecole d'Agen
Auch Caudron C600 Aiglon 7254 W.925 RP Ecole d'Agen
Auch Caudron C600 Aiglon 7257 F.AQKK RP Ecole d'Agen
Auch Caudron C600 Aiglon F.AOSO RP Ecole d'Agen
Auch Caudron C600 Aiglon F.ANZM RP Ecole d'Agen
Auch Caudron C600 Aiglon F.AOSZ RP Ecole d'Agen
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C600 Aiglon ADGV D Parc
Albi - E.E.P. n°47 Caudron C600 Aiglon 135 M.25 D
Bergerac Caudron C600 Aiglon 7032 F.ANSH D
Clermont-Ferrand - ARAA Caudron C601 Aiglon 7626 RP E.A.A. 301
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C601 Aiglon 7622 GT45 D
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C632 6510 RF Parc
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C632 6518 RF
Carcassonne Caudron C635 Simoun 7668 D 2e R.A.
Carcassonne Caudron C635 Simoun T.296 D 2e R.A.
Moissac Caudron C635 Simoun 370 RF D.A.L.A.C.
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 16 T.146 RP D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 25 T.155 RP D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 52 T.182 D D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 76 T.206 RP D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 94 T.254 RP D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 194 D D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 206 T.737 D D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 209 T.740 D D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 227 T.758 RP D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 234 T.765 RP D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 259 T.790 RP D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 272 T.803 RP D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 282 T.813 RP D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 283 T.814 RP D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 311 T.842 RP D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 321 T.852 RP D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 333 T.864 RP D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 339 T.870 RP D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Istres Caudron C635 Simoun 7083 Q.347 RP D.E. et de Servitude B.A. Istres
Bron Caudron C635 Simoun 403 560 RF D.I.A.P.
Clermont-Ferrand - ARAA Caudron C635 Simoun 7086 T.135 RP E.A.A. 301
Clermont-Ferrand - ARAA Caudron C635 Simoun 7534 F-APUT RP E.A.A. 301
Pau Caudron C635 Simoun 65 T.195 D E.M. 3e RA
Pau Caudron C635 Simoun 69 T.199 D E.M. 3e RA
Pau Caudron C635 Simoun 77 T.207 D E.M. 3e RA
Pau Caudron C635 Simoun 150 T.351 D E.M. 3e RA
Pau Caudron C635 Simoun 271 T.802 D E.M. 3e RA
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C635 Simoun 134 T.294 RP E.P. 101 (base 107)
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C635 Simoun 369 T.596 D E.P. 101 (base 107)
Albi - Gaillac Caudron C635 Simoun 513 T.793 D E.P. 101 (base 107)
Bergerac Caudron C635 Simoun 101 T.261 RF E.P. Bergerac
Bergerac Caudron C635 Simoun 129 T.289 D E.P. Bergerac
Bergerac Caudron C635 Simoun 347 T.504 RF E.P. Bergerac
Bergerac Caudron C635 Simoun 483 T.092 D E.P. Bergerac
Bergerac Caudron C635 Simoun 495 T.653 RF E.P. Bergerac
Bergerac Caudron C635 Simoun 498 T.656 RF E.P. Bergerac
Brignoles - Fayence Caudron C635 Simoun 112 RP F.A. 15
Pau Caudron C635 Simoun 455 T.064 D G.A.O. 522
Brignoles - Fayence Caudron C635 Simoun 194 D G.A.O. 523
Brignoles - Fayence Caudron C635 Simoun 454 D G.A.O. 523
Hautes-Pyrénées Caudron C635 Simoun 21 RP Groupement de chasse 23
Moissac Caudron C635 Simoun 440 D I/104
Vichy Caudron C635 Simoun 108 T.268 RF Inconnue
Périgueux Caudron C635 Simoun F.APUN D Maison Caudron
Hautes-Pyrénées Caudron C635 Simoun 144 D S.A.L. stationnée à Toulouse
Hautes-Pyrénées Caudron C635 Simoun 175 D S.A.L. stationnée à Toulouse
Hautes-Pyrénées Caudron C635 Simoun 448 D S.A.L. stationnée à Toulouse
Pau Caudron C635 Simoun 45 T.175 D S.C.T. Aér.
Rodez Caudron C635 Simoun 168 7.369 RP trouvé sur le terrain
Albi - E.E.P. n°47 Caudron C635 Simoun 0 D
Albi - E.E.P. n°47 Caudron C635 Simoun 55 T.185 D
Albi - E.E.P. n°47 Caudron C635 Simoun 193 T.445 RP
Albi - E.E.P. n°47 Caudron C635 Simoun 379 T.536 D
Avignon - Chateaublanc Caudron C635 Simoun 205 D
Avignon - Chateaublanc Caudron C635 Simoun 239 D
Avignon - Chateaublanc Caudron C635 Simoun 348 D
Avignon - Chateaublanc Caudron C635 Simoun 450 D
Châteauroux Caudron C635 Simoun 202 RF
Châteauroux Caudron C635 Simoun 287 RF
Lézignan Caudron C635 Simoun 230 T-761 D
Lézignan Caudron C635 Simoun 247 T-778 RP
Limoges Caudron C635 Simoun 96 T-256 D
Limoges Caudron C635 Simoun 409 T-366 D
Moissac - Corbarieu Caudron C635 Simoun 146 D
Pau Caudron C635 Simoun 123 T.283 D
Pau Caudron C635 Simoun 451 T.060 D
St Etienne Bouthéon Caudron C635 Simoun 98 RF
Salon Caudron C690 12 C.012 D E.M.S.
Toulouse-Francazal Caudron C690 Rafale 8 D Parc
Pau Caudron C690 Rafale 17 B.476 D
Bron Caudron Cyclone 15 I-205 RP D.I.A.P.
Bron Caudron Cyclone 27 I-217 RP D.I.A.P.
Bron Caudron Cyclone 8561 I-219 DT D.I.A.P.
Bron Caudron Cyclone 42 8574
Bron Caudron Cyclone 49 8581
Lézignan Caudron Luciole 14 YY-270 D Det (?) 39 Tarbes
Châteauroux Caudron Luciole 0 RP
Toulouse-Francazal Loire 46 7 N.094 RP Parc
Châteauroux Loire 46 0 RP
Châteauroux Loire 46 58 RP
Toulouse-Francazal Loire 46 9 N.096 D
Tarbes Maillet 24 I020 D Groupement 4
Vichy Maillet 201 11 I.007 RF récupéré sur terrain de Vichy
Clermont-Ferrand - ARAA Mauboussin 123 156 F-ARDO RP E.A.A. 301
Toulouse-Francazal Mauboussin 125 171 W.781 D EAA 301
Toulouse-Francazal Mauboussin 125 0 A.PQH D Parc
Toulouse-Francazal Mauboussin 127 172 W.782 D EAA 301
Toulouse-Francazal Mauboussin 129 167 W.777 D EAA 301

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Re: French Air Force disposition on 10 May 1940

Post by Peter K » 05 Sep 2011 19:53

Hi Takata & Bronsky,

In addition to your data from page 1 of this thread (which says for example that as of 10 May 1940 there were 989 French fighters in combat units in Métropole), do you also have data how many planes (I am interested particularly in fighters) were sent to combat units as replacements during the campaign (in May and June)? In other words - how many planes (particularly fighters) were in total used in combat units during the course of the campaign?

Also - do you happen to have info on how many air victories did French fighters achieve in 1940? Is there any data which says how many of French claims were actually confirmed by German sources (casualty reports)?

Is 650 a correct number of air victories achieved by AdlA (or French fighters only?) in that campaign?

Or does it also include victories achieved by British, Belgian and Dutch Air Forces?

What about the Polish Air Force in France - do numbers regarding strength of the French Air Force on 10 May 1940 posted on page 1 of this thread include also strength of units of the Polish Air Force in France?

How many of the 51 & 9/10 air victories granted to Polish pilots in France are confirmed by German sources?:

List of 51 & 9/10 air victories by Polish pilots in France:

http://www.polishairforce.pl/zestrzfranc.html

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polskie_Si ... we_Francji

Are air victories claimed by Poles flying in Polish units also included in the overall number of French claims (just like claims of Poles who served in French units - which obviously must be included in that figure)?

Thanks in advance!

BTW - you have provided a lot of really excellent info here so far! :wink:

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Re: French Air Force disposition on 10 May 1940

Post by Bronsky » 05 Sep 2011 21:07

Hi Domen,
Domen121 wrote:do you also have data how many planes (I am interested particularly in fighters) were sent to combat units as replacements during the campaign (in May and June)? In other words - how many planes (particularly fighters) were in total used in combat units during the course of the campaign?
First of all, the 989 figure includes reserves, there were never 989 planes at the same time. Secondly, of these fighters only 946 were modern (scratch the last two lines), and the Potez 630/631 was only marginally better than the Blenheim IF.

That being said, the air force received 1,040 planes between 10 May and 10 June. After 10 June, the air force essentially stopped counting so we'd have to go through the various units' histories to form an idea, but many of them started to evacuate to North Africa shortly thereafter anyway.
I don't have a breakdown for the 1,040 planes figure, but I do have a breakdown by type of the planes received by combat units to 6 June: 578 in total, of which 324 fighters (+ 12 Potez 631 if you want to count them). If the ratio is the same to 10 June, then an additional 574 fighters would have been issued but not all of these would have been usable for lack of critical components (that's one of the reasons why my set of figures to 6 June has lower figures).
Domen121 wrote:Also - do you happen to have info on how many air victories did French fighters achieve in 1940? Is there any data which says how many of French claims were actually confirmed by German sources (casualty reports)?
German casualty reports tell us how many planes were lost on what day (with some dating errors). They're not much help as to who shot them down, and are particularly unhelpful when planes of various nationalities participated. Also, German pilots were no different than others, and made numerous identification errors.

The following is something I wrote somewhere else, some time ago, and which still holds true, pretty much.
Most of what is below comes from an excellent synthesis that I already mentioned here: Patrick Facon's "L'Armée de l'air dans la tourmente", Economica 1997. Dr Facon was head of the historical service of the French airforce when he wrote the book.

The French made different claims, but they all centered around a figure of 900 German planes, including losses to AAA. Just to show off: Vuillemin in 1940 reported 982, d'Harcourt (1940) reported 919 for the fighter arm alone, Mendigal (1940) gave 830 for the fighters and 210 for the AAA, Buffotot and Ogier (1975) say 733 for the fighters and 120 by AAA, more recent sources say less (Paul Marin: "Invisibles vainqueurs. Exploits et sacrifices de l'armée de l'Air en 1939-1940". Paris, Yves Michelet Editeur, 1990, counts 594 claims from French fighters). So let's remember 900, including from AA.
The British claimed 821 victories: 201 for the Air Component of the BEF, 131 for the AASF, and 489 for FC (this comes from a study by the RAF historical branch in 1995-96).
The Dutch claimed 325 transport planes + 200 other planes destroyed. (source: "The Luftwaffe's airborne Losses in May 1940. An Interpretation" by Ausens in Aerospace Historian, sept 85)
The Belgians reported some 120 (source: French archives, documents from Belgian liaison mission)

So the total claims add up to 2,300 German planes. However, we already know that Luftwaffe loss estimates in May-June varied from 1,389 (Cooper) to 1,428 (Murray). These figures take into account ALL losses, including those suffered in Eastern Germany and Norway. By doing a manual recount, Dr Facon arrived at a figure of 1,290 German planes lost (all causes) in France and the Low Countries from May 10th to June 24th. Of these (again according to German archives), 18% were from air combat, 15% from accidents, 0.7% destroyed on the ground, 7.3% from enemy AA fire, and 54.5% from "unknown causes" (obviously combat losses).

After correction, this gives the following figures: Dutch 220 kills, Belgians 6 kills (Hervé Gerard: "Histoire de l'aviation belge", Bruxelles, Paullegrain éditeur, 1980), and between 800 and 850 to share between the French and the British. At this point, Facon says that since there aren't detailed daily records for the RAF part, trying to acertain the exact share of British/French air victories will probably never be possible, except by making educated guesses.
Arnaud Gillet wrote a series of books on this topic, with a different accounting method. I'd have to pull them off the shelves, but from memory the split would be something like 55/45 in favor of the French.
Domen121 wrote:What about the Polish Air Force in France - do numbers regarding strength of the French Air Force on 10 May 1940 posted on page 1 of this thread include also strength of units of the Polish Air Force in France?
Yes, they do. And yes, their victories are counted in the French total, just as Polish kills are counted as RAF in Battle of Britain books.
Domen121 wrote:How many of the 51 & 9/10 air victories granted to Polish pilots in France are confirmed by German sources?:
I'd have to look, but bear in mind that these numbers are misleading. I think 8 confirmed and 2 probable kills.

A quick explanation of the French system:
- If you have 4 fighters participating in the shooting down of 1 enemy bomber, then the 4 pilots will each be credited with a victory (so 4 victories awarded) but 1 plane will be claimed shot down by the unit.
- This kill claims are called "victoire sûres", which is often - and wrongly - translated as "certain victories". Technically that's the correct translation but in French air force parlance it meant aircraft that the unit was sure it had killed, i.e. a kill claim. Some of these claims would be verified, others wouldn't.

IIRC the number of 50 for the Poles would be arrived at by adding up all the kill and probable kill claims. So no, they didn't kill that many - no wonder, given the circumstances - but that doesn't take away from the valor of the pilots, IMO.

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Re: French Air Force disposition on 10 May 1940

Post by Peter K » 05 Sep 2011 22:07

Thanks Bronsky!
First of all, the 989 figure includes reserves
From what Takata wrote, it doesn't include equipment reserve - only combat units (incl. reserve combat units).

Equipment reserves in his chart were counted in columns G, H, I and J.
IIRC the number of 50 for the Poles would be arrived at by adding up all the kill and probable kill claims. So no, they didn't kill that many - no wonder, given the circumstances - but that doesn't take away from the valor of the pilots, IMO.
The data I quoted says 51 9/10 "certain", 3 "probable" and 6 3/5 "damaged".

This "certain" number probably refers to your "victoire sûres".
After correction, this gives the following figures: Dutch 220 kills, Belgians 6 kills (Hervé Gerard: "Histoire de l'aviation belge", Bruxelles, Paullegrain éditeur, 1980), and between 800 and 850 to share between the French and the British. At this point, Facon says that since there aren't detailed daily records for the RAF part, trying to acertain the exact share of British/French air victories will probably never be possible, except by making educated guesses.
Sharing kills in proportion 55/45 for France / Britain refers only to the last number (800 - 850) I presume?

BTW - this refers to all kills (including AA defence) or only kills inflicted by fighters / all planes?

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Re: French Air Force disposition on 10 May 1940

Post by musec » 05 Sep 2011 23:16

Hello Bronsky,

I would like to express my thanks for the great effort you have made not just typing the information in your response to my last question, but also for the amount of research you must have put in assembling this data.

One further question. A number of units have RP in the designations . Could you please advise what this abbreviation signifies.

Regards,

Clint

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Re: French Air Force disposition on 10 May 1940

Post by Bronsky » 06 Sep 2011 20:27

Domen121 wrote:From what Takata wrote, it doesn't include equipment reserve - only combat units (incl. reserve combat units).

Equipment reserves in his chart were counted in columns G, H, I and J.
First of all, there's no contradiction on that point between Takata and myself. I took the pictures of the original documents in the archives, and Takata improved the table and put in a much clearer presentation and explanation. My point here is that I'm familiar with the data. Takata is usually good at correcting my oversights or reminding me that I already had some information I was looking for, but with the information right under my eyes I should manage (pending his confirmation!).

Colums A-C refer to planes assigned to combat units:
Column A = aircraft that are immediately available in combat units. Provided that the fuel, bombs and crews are available, they can fly today.
Column B = aircraft that are not operational, i.e. undergoing repairs, waiting for critical spare parts, etc.
Column C = aircraft that have been assigned to combat units but are still held at rear-area depots.

Column G is like Column C but for trainers (not 100% sure, that's IIRC but I'm fairly sure)
Columns H-J are aircraft that are held by the central depot system and currently unassigned, with G consisting of operational aircraft ready to be issued to combat units, the others are for aircraft that aren't ready. G is empty, because planes were shifted to combat units as soon as they were ready (and sometimes even a bit sooner).
This "certain" number probably refers to your "victoire sûres".
It either refers to the kill claims (victoires sûres), or to the sum of the "victoires" attributed to individual pilots. I'd have to check to be certain. Either way, it does not correspond to 50+ German planes actually downed.
Sharing kills in proportion 55/45 for France / Britain refers only to the last number (800 - 850) I presume?
You presume correctly. These 800-850 include British and French air to air and AA kills, with the Polish score being part of the French one.

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