Number of French vs Germans divisions 1940

[C. A. Fleischer]

According to most sources, the French army had 94 divisions facing the Germans in northern France on 10 May 1940. The Germans deployed 136 of its 157 divisions in the West. Yet, the same sources states that the French army was much larger than the German army with 5 million vs 2,5 million men.

So where were all these French troops deployed and in what units? And why were the French so apparently hopeless in creating effective divisions out of these? (theoretically, they should have been able to create 270 divisions if the used their troops as efficienlty as the Germans!)

Please advice..

[ljadw]

Frieser(in the Blitzkrieg Legend) is giving the following:
Germany :157 divisions,of which 135 were earmarked for the offensive,but a lot were not used.
France :1O4 manning the north east front .
The 5 million of France (I think it is more) ,can not be compared with the 2.5 million of Germany,because the 5 million include also the reserve army .
For Germany,the figures are :army :4.2 million,WSS :100000,LW :1 million,KM:180000 ,total being :5.5 million .

[ljadw]

For France (following Frieser):army :5.5 millionof which 2.24 million (104 divisions) on the northeast front .

[Carl Schwamberger]

Dont have time to check the books, but the French number probablly includes reservists not on active service and the army overseas in the colonies.

The French were taking the long view & perfered to keep men with critical skills in industry out of active service. Their objective was to use the skilled men to continue the program of revamping industrial production. After the initial mobilization was accomplished in Oct 1939 there were some reservists with critical skills released from active service to return to industrial work.

[C. A. Fleischer]

Many thanks for replies.

If Friesler states that 2,24 million made up 104 divisions in northern France out of an army of 5,5 million. What about the remaining 3,26 million men? Seems like a lot reserves for existing divisions.. And I can't find any sources saying that new reserve divisions were raised after 10 May 1940, only ad-hoc formations made up of bits and pieces of other existing units.

It seems the conclusion is that the French were hopelessly inefficient in getting firepower out of their manpower. The Germans made 157 divisions out of 4,2 million trained men, the French only 104 out of 5,5.

[C. A. Fleischer]

Correction: The French had units in the colonies and along the Italian border, but still, to make to with 104 divisions during the moment of truth suggests bad judgement and/or poor intelligence about the enemy.

[ljadw]

If you can read French :a good source is :L'armée française en 1940
It is giving different figures than Frieser.
Total 5 million
Army :
Field army :94 divisions (2.24 million) on the northeast front;5 divisions (manpower ?) on the Alpes);some 20 divisions (with brigades,regiments,...) in the colonies with 600000 men
A guess for the manpower of the fieldarmy would be 3 million .
remaining :reserve army,air force,navy,gendarmerie :some 2 million .
The field army would be 3 million men,some 60 % of the total .
I think a good guess for the Germans would be THE SAME :60% a field army of 3.2million with 157 divisions (a lot of them smaller than the French)for a total of 5.4 million men .
Germany mobilised some 7 % of her population,France 12.5 %

[Sid Guttridge]

In 1939 France still had more trained reserves than Germany because it had continued conscription in the 1920s and 1930s when Germany was forbidden to conscript by the Treaty of Versailles. However, all the Frenchmen conscripted in the 1920s and up to 1935 had only served one year. When Germany reintroduced conscription in the mid 1930s it was for two years. France immediately responded by upping its term for new conscripts to two years as well. Thus most French reservists were undertrained in 1939.

It must also be remembered that France had a population little more than half that of the Reich and had a lower birth rate. As a result France could train only one conscript for every two Germans in the second half of the 1930s. Thus Germany had twice as many men who had two years conscript training in modern warfare techniques as France by the beginning of the 1940s.

By 1940 all the French conscripts trained in the 1920s and early 1930s were older men, presumably less fit, who had probably forgotten much of their single year of training which had been, in any case, with obsolescent weaponry.

So simply totting up the number of divisions on each side is misleading. For France, with about 45 million people, to field 94 divisions was more of a demographic strain than for Germany with 80 million to field 157.

[Loïc]

hello, French metropolitan population amounted to ~40/42 millions
Divisions stricto sensu
10 May 1940 the French Army had 97 "Divisions" in Metropolitan France & CEFS :

22 Infantry (actives + newly raised 8e & 44e)
17 série A
19 série B
8 DIC
7 DINA
5 DIF
5 DLC
3 DLM
3 DCr (brigade size)
3 taken from North Africa (1st Moroccan, 82e 87e)
2 Divisions of the Polish Army in France
3 Light (brigade size) of the CEFS but only the 1ére DLCh in Norway, 2e DLCh in Scotland, 3e DLI in Britanny


total 97 : 94 from the Flanders to Nizza (5 in the Southeast) and 3 of the CEFS in Normay-Great Britain-France
all the authors giving more than 94 or 97 Divisions add some "Fortified Sectors" as Divisions

Overseas 14 "Divisions"
North Africa 11 Divisions (6e DLC 81e 83e 84e 85e 88e 180e 181e 182e 183e, 3rd Moroccan)
Levant 3 Divisions (86e 191e 192e)

not counting created but still embryonic divisions (17e DI, 1st Czechoslovak...) and the "Divisions" in Indochina

so 111 "Divisions" in France, CEFS, North Africa & Levant


Goyet La défaite 10 mai-25 juin 1940 gives for Metropolitan France 1. may 1940
2 651 802 "aux Armées" (means the Front)
529 028 des formations du territoire (Interior)
675 386 Depôts et Centres d'Organisation (Interior)
75 638 Foreigners (RMVE & Légion in Métropolitan France, Polish & Czechoslovak Armies)
53 466 in the hospitals

sub-total Army Metropolitan France 3 985 320
North Africa 420 497
Levant 83 654
Overseas 250 158
Armée de l'Air 181 000
Marine 176 000
Grand total = 5 096 629 men not including 1 600 000 "affectés spéciaux"

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Loic,

I was just looking at French population statistics. It seems that some 3 million of those living in Metropolitan France were of recent foreign origin. The biggest such communities seems to have been Italians, Poles and Spanish.

This doesn't tell us how reliable they were for the French state, but it does appear that the ethnic French population of France may have been slightly under half of the ethnic German population of the Reich in 1940.

[steverodgers801]

In strange victory, the author talks about how the regular was suspicious of reservists and only used them because they had to. One other difficulty is that because of budget battles the reservists were given little training, sometimes only one year, follow up was also poor. The commander assigned to Sedan had a choice, train his men or use them to upgrade the defences. He choose defences, but he was in difficulties either way.

[Carl Schwamberger]

... The commander assigned to Sedan had a choice, train his men or use them to upgrade the defences. He choose defences, but he was in difficulties either way.

That was army wide policy for the 'B' divisions. After mobilization of them October-November they were given low priority for training, which was to reverse in the summer of 1940 as the frontier wide constructon plan finished that phase. the intergraton of the 'R' or "Active" level fortress regiment in the 55th Divisions sector into the division was suposed to offset in part the low training level of the 5th Division. The fortress regiment was made up of younger & recently trained reservists.

Doughty's 'The Breaking Point' is a good English language description of the 55th Div & its collapse.

[Kelvin]

hello, French metropolitan population amounted to ~40/42 millions
Divisions stricto sensu
10 May 1940 the French Army had 97 "Divisions" in Metropolitan France & CEFS :

22 Infantry (actives + newly raised 8e & 44e)
17 série A
19 série B
8 DIC
7 DINA
5 DIF
5 DLC
3 DLM
3 DCr (brigade size)
3 taken from North Africa (1st Moroccan, 82e 87e)
2 Divisions of the Polish Army in France
3 Light (brigade size) of the CEFS but only the 1ére DLCh in Norway, 2e DLCh in Scotland, 3e DLI in Britanny


total 97 : 94 from the Flanders to Nizza (5 in the Southeast) and 3 of the CEFS in Normay-Great Britain-France
all the authors giving more than 94 or 97 Divisions add some "Fortified Sectors" as Divisions

Overseas 14 "Divisions"
North Africa 11 Divisions (6e DLC 81e 83e 84e 85e 88e 180e 181e 182e 183e, 3rd Moroccan)
Levant 3 Divisions (86e 191e 192e)

not counting created but still embryonic divisions (17e DI, 1st Czechoslovak...) and the "Divisions" in Indochina

so 111 "Divisions" in France, CEFS, North Africa & Levant


Goyet La défaite 10 mai-25 juin 1940 gives for Metropolitan France 1. may 1940
2 651 802 "aux Armées" (means the Front)
529 028 des formations du territoire (Interior)
675 386 Depôts et Centres d'Organisation (Interior)
75 638 Foreigners (RMVE & Légion in Métropolitan France, Polish & Czechoslovak Armies)
53 466 in the hospitals

sub-total Army Metropolitan France 3 985 320
North Africa 420 497
Levant 83 654
Overseas 250 158
Armée de l'Air 181 000
Marine 176 000
Grand total = 5 096 629 men not including 1 600 000 "affectés spéciaux"

Hi, Lioc, most of books put 8e and 44e DI in A class divisions. but your sentence puts them with active division cataloge means actually they were active divisions in French army ?
8e DI includes GUI 16 with 4 instruction battalions, 12e Foreign Legion and 237 RI from 103 Fortress Infantry division while 44e DI had Instruction unit, Demibrigade from Alpine division and 173rd DB Alpine from Corsica.

[Loïc]

Actually both Divisions were not actives nor série A or something as they were two of the few news divisions formed during the months of war before the 10th may with various elements, but I choose to put them with actives divisions just to simplify the text as the 44e DI had mainly active units : 173e, 2 Alpine Chasseurs Half-Brigades with 3 active and 3 série A battalions, one half-brigade replaced in may 1940 by the 6e RI who was not a Training unit but formed by XXIst Battalions in october 1939
the 8e DI it is an other story, initially it was supposed to be the new 8e DINA with 2 Foreign Infantry Regiments (11e 12e REI) and 6e RI, North African Divisional Artillery but the circunstances give an other definitive more metropolitan ORBAT as "DI" with the 16th Chasseurs Half-Brigade and série B-237e RI instead of 11e REI and 6e RI, raised officially the 1st april the Division was not really completed with its artillery before the end of may

Regards
Loïc L.

[Kelvin]

Actually both Divisions were not actives nor série A or something as they were two of the few news divisions formed during the months of war before the 10th may with various elements, but I choose to put them with actives divisions just to simplify the text as the 44e DI had mainly active units : 173e, 2 Alpine Chasseurs Half-Brigades with 3 active and 3 série A battalions, one half-brigade replaced in may 1940 by the 6e RI who was not a Training unit but formed by XXIst Battalions in october 1939
the 8e DI it is an other story, initially it was supposed to be the new 8e DINA with 2 Foreign Infantry Regiments (11e 12e REI) and 6e RI, North African Divisional Artillery but the circunstances give an other definitive more metropolitan ORBAT as "DI" with the 16th Chasseurs Half-Brigade and série B-237e RI instead of 11e REI and 6e RI, raised officially the 1st april the Division was not really completed with its artillery before the end of may

Regards
Loïc L.

HI, Loic, thank for your answer, very helpful.