Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

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Loïc
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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#16

Post by Loïc » 03 Apr 2016, 21:45

hello
dislocated or captured, it is the same end as many elements have been captured, others isolated trying to join theirs lines, so the 45th ceased to exist as Division the 14th june

it is the same fate for the 82e DIA, dislocated and almost all captured the 15th june

both Divisions ceased to appear in the French ORBAT mid-june

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Loïc

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#17

Post by Kelvin » 03 Apr 2016, 22:06

Hi, Lioc, thank a lot on your help. I have last two divisions need your help finally : Status on June 25 for 57e infantry division and 5th Colonial infantry division. May you help me on those ? "Thank.


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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#18

Post by Loïc » 03 Apr 2016, 23:35

hello
the 5e DIC suffered very heavily during the hard fightings of the battle of the Somme /Weygand Line 5/7th june 1940, except its 22e RIC attached to others Divisions and finally lost in Saint Valéry-en-Caux pocket, the 8th june the Division was reduced to 150 infantrymen 66 cavalrymen 277 artillerymen with 2 guns and 50 sappers forming a march battalion
the 13th june was able to gather a total of 700 infantrymen 300 cavalrymen 1900 artillerymen but mostly unarmed
the 15th june remnants of 4 divisions and one Army Corps organic elements attached to the Division, but few were fightings units (was only able to organize a mixed motorized battalion taken from all the Divisions)
this motley Group reached the southern zone


the série B-reserve 57e DI knew a better fate, reaching the Massif Central with the others Division in Limousin, gathering always 8000 men the 25th june

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Loïc

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#19

Post by Kelvin » 04 Apr 2016, 20:52

Loïc wrote:hello
the 5e DIC suffered very heavily during the hard fightings of the battle of the Somme /Weygand Line 5/7th june 1940, except its 22e RIC attached to others Divisions and finally lost in Saint Valéry-en-Caux pocket, the 8th june the Division was reduced to 150 infantrymen 66 cavalrymen 277 artillerymen with 2 guns and 50 sappers forming a march battalion
the 13th june was able to gather a total of 700 infantrymen 300 cavalrymen 1900 artillerymen but mostly unarmed
the 15th june remnants of 4 divisions and one Army Corps organic elements attached to the Division, but few were fightings units (was only able to organize a mixed motorized battalion taken from all the Divisions)
this motley Group reached the southern zone


the série B-reserve 57e DI knew a better fate, reaching the Massif Central with the others Division in Limousin, gathering always 8000 men the 25th june

Regards
Loïc
Hi, Loic, thank a lot for your information.

What you said remnants of 4 divisions and army corps is mean General la Laurencie ;s III Corps with 3rd Cavalry division, two light mechanized ( don't know their numbers) and one infantry division ( possibly 5th Colonial or any 200 series DLI) ? Quoted by " Why France collapsed " which consisted of one infantry battalion and two companies and three group of 75mm. DLM only had 300 dragoon, Is it same thing ? Thank.

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#20

Post by Loïc » 04 Apr 2016, 21:18

this sentence concerns few surviving elements attached to the remnants of the 5e DIC the 15th june coming from 4 divisions and one Army Corps encircled and captured in Saint Valéry-en-Caux pocket : 31e 40e DI 2e 5e DLC organic elements of the IXth Army Corps
for the 40e DI nothing more than an artillery group more both Divisional Quatermaster and Sanitary groups

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#21

Post by Kelvin » 04 Apr 2016, 21:34

Hello, Loic, thank so much for your answer, have a nice day ! :D

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#22

Post by Kelvin » 06 Apr 2016, 21:12

Hi, Loic, want to get some clarification from you to prove my data whether it is right : 10e and 44e infantry divisions only had 649 men and 2500 men left on June 25 1940 respectively. Is my data correct ? Thank
Last edited by Kelvin on 07 Apr 2016, 07:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#23

Post by Loïc » 06 Apr 2016, 21:28

hello, yes
for the 44e DI the total I found gives 2450

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#24

Post by Kelvin » 07 Apr 2016, 07:31

Hi, Loic, thank a lot on 44e DI.

Wiki fails to tell 10e DI remant just 649 men is purely infantry or the whole unit, if whole unit is really serious. so want some clarification.

BTW, your database mentions 28e Alpine renmant only about 1000-1200 men, you mean the whole division or just in infantry units ?

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#25

Post by Kelvin » 14 Apr 2016, 20:46

Hi, Loic, I would like to ask u if 3e light Chasseur division still existed on June 25 1940 ?

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#26

Post by archiveruk » 14 Apr 2016, 21:52

Hi Kelvin,

There was no 3e Light Chasseur Division formed - it was 3rd Light Infantry Division.

On 25.06.40 it still existed, but it and its attached units were reduced to 232 officers, 725 NCOs, 5199 other ranks, 218 LMG, 81 MG, 12 x 60mm Mortars, 8 x 81mm mortars and 10 tanks


Lee

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#27

Post by Kelvin » 15 Apr 2016, 08:53

Hi, Leo, thank a lot. That division wasn't that bad in this moment still had 6,156 men.

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#28

Post by Kelvin » 18 Apr 2016, 08:32

Hi, Leo, do you have status of six newly built DLI on June 25 1940. I only had one divison -235e DLI which only had a battalion about 400 men on that day. I am looking for another six status (236-241), do you have some information for that ? Thank

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#29

Post by archiveruk » 22 Apr 2016, 22:21

Hi Kelvin,

I have not done any research on these divisions yet, but what I do have is:

Surviving elements of 235e DLI were attached to 2e DI (Groupement Klopfenstein) on 13.06.40. By the end of the campaign 9e RI had 1 officer, 43 NCOs and 235 men; 108e RI had a colonel and fifty men; 323e RA was reduced to 10 guns and 500 men

236e DLI was largely destroyed during the period 17-19.06.40, on 25.06.40 surviving elements were incorporated into 237e DLI.

237e DLI was with IIIe CA. It lost most of its troops during the period 19-21.06.40.

238e DLI was with XVIIe CA but the fighting on the Aisne and the retreat from 10-17.06.40 reduced it to as reported on 23.06.40 to about a batallions worth of infantry, seven 75mm guns and half a company of sappers.

239e DLI was with Ire CA - On 21.06.40 138e RI had 600 men & 59e RI had 1100 men.

240e DLI was with captured during the period 17-18.06.40 in XVIIIe CA.

241e DLI was with XXVe CA, however it had lost so many troops during the period 15-16.06.40, survivors were attached to 85e DIA

Lee

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Re: Question about Lorraine-Alsace 1940

#30

Post by Kelvin » 23 Apr 2016, 07:50

archiveruk wrote:Hi Kelvin,

I have not done any research on these divisions yet, but what I do have is:

Surviving elements of 235e DLI were attached to 2e DI (Groupement Klopfenstein) on 13.06.40. By the end of the campaign 9e RI had 1 officer, 43 NCOs and 235 men; 108e RI had a colonel and fifty men; 323e RA was reduced to 10 guns and 500 men

236e DLI was largely destroyed during the period 17-19.06.40, on 25.06.40 surviving elements were incorporated into 237e DLI.

237e DLI was with IIIe CA. It lost most of its troops during the period 19-21.06.40.

238e DLI was with XVIIe CA but the fighting on the Aisne and the retreat from 10-17.06.40 reduced it to as reported on 23.06.40 to about a batallions worth of infantry, seven 75mm guns and half a company of sappers.

239e DLI was with Ire CA - On 21.06.40 138e RI had 600 men & 59e RI had 1100 men.

240e DLI was with captured during the period 17-18.06.40 in XVIIIe CA.

241e DLI was with XXVe CA, however it had lost so many troops during the period 15-16.06.40, survivors were attached to 85e DIA

Lee
Hi, Lee, thank so much for your help. I have some ideas want to share with everyone :

Many books on French campaign always say French only had 66-70 divisions left in the Front. But they only count existing divisons on May 10 1940, they don't count total 14 newly or rebuilt divisions ( 1er, 17e, 32e, 43e, 53e,59e, 235e, 236e, 237e,238e,239e,240e and 241e DLI and 1er DLINA), albeit actually brigde size. I think is equal to about seven pre-war divisions. Also 84e and 85e DINA were rushed to the front.

And also many books say French lost 30 divisions including three DLM and 2 DLC. They lost all the motor vehicles and weapon. The former still exised in OOB after June 5. and the later redesignated as 4e and 7e DLM. So, I don't know what is the meaning of destruction of a single division ?

And 9 divisions of BEF, though lost all their vehicles and weapon, but no people say BEF lost nine divisions but people say French lost 3 DLM ? so where are people in DLM to continue the war after June 5 ? I am curious.

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