Actual organization of BCP of DCR in 1940

Discussions on all aspects of France during the Inter-War era and Second World War.
Kelvin
Member
Posts: 2624
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Actual organization of BCP of DCR in 1940

Post by Kelvin » 24 Jan 2018 08:32

Hi, Lee Sharp book on French Army mentions BCP (armored infantry battalion) of DC (Curissraier Division) organized as three rifle companies and one weapon company. But I search many websites always mentions it was two rifle companies with Lorraine 38 APC , one motorcycle squardron and weapon company, so which one was DCR actual organization in May 1940 ? Thank

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 792
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Actual organization of BCP of DCR in 1940

Post by Loïc » 25 Jan 2018 00:25

hello

...a squadron in a french infantry battalion?

Lee Sharp is right
the command company, the CHR, the weapons company and 3 of rifles fusiliers-voltigeurs

not Divisions Cuirassiers the old heavy cavalry, the 11 Cuirassiers regiments belong in 1940 to light mechanised and cavalry divisions (not counting the special case 4e DCr joined by initial 4e DLM elements) but cuirassé(e)s for armored brigades then divisions of the Tank Infantry branch former Special Assault Artillery of the Great War,
the battleships Richelieu or Jean Bart are also cuirassés, the Cuirassiers were cuirassés before suffering a conversion in foot cavalrymen divisions for their greatest disgrace during the Great War

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 2624
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Actual organization of BCP of DCR in 1940

Post by Kelvin » 25 Jan 2018 08:49

Loïc wrote:hello

...a squadron in a french infantry battalion?

Lee Sharp is right
the command company, the CHR, the weapons company and 3 of rifles fusiliers-voltigeurs

not Divisions Cuirassiers the old heavy cavalry, the 11 Cuirassiers regiments belong in 1940 to light mechanised and cavalry divisions (not counting the special case 4e DCr joined by initial 4e DLM elements) but cuirassé(e)s for armored brigades then divisions of the Tank Infantry branch former Special Assault Artillery of the Great War,
the battleships Richelieu or Jean Bart are also cuirassés, the Cuirassiers were cuirassés before suffering a conversion in foot cavalrymen divisions for their greatest disgrace during the Great War
Hello, Loic, thank for your help. But I want to ask Lee Sharp has a chart on BCP and for the whole division, what he calls 10 seats All Terrain vehicles, is it mean Lorraine 38 APC ? Another 5 seats all Terrain vehicle is Lorraine 28 truck ?

And did all French motorized engineer company in all motorized divisions like DLM and DLC, DCR, is divided into 3 platoons one for all terrain vehicles, one for truck and on motorcycles mentioned by Stephane Comman 's website on French OOB ? Or just on trucks only ? Thank

alain adam
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: 23 Dec 2017 19:58
Location: lyon

Re: Actual organization of BCP of DCR in 1940

Post by alain adam » 25 Jan 2018 20:15

Hi Kelvin ,
I've made , long time ago , a specific text about BCP of each 4 DCRs and their armored vehicules . I will try to find it , to provide to you .
But , if i remember well , French had not produce suffisant quantities of Lorraine 38 , and , as an example , the 4th DCR's BCP batallion used bus ( yes ! ) instead of any armored vehicle . For a whole overview of DCR organisation , please look at :
http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/divers/DCuirs%201-0.pdf
and particulary for BCP , these information
http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/divers/odb.htm#BCPorté

Regards,
Alain
ATF40 ( Armée de Terre Française 1940 ) : French ground army in 1940 , website atf40.fr

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 792
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Actual organization of BCP of DCR in 1940

Post by Loïc » 25 Jan 2018 21:20

Hello

I expected your intervention about a such topic Alain,
there is something in the GBM 79 (card cover below) by François Vauvillier the 4 BCP were not at all uniformized regarding their motorization
both 5e and 17e BCP Portés having each 43 instead of planned 61 VBCP (APC) Lorraine 38 L, such battalion had also 15 all-terrain VDP (APC) Lorraine 28, six all-terrain Laffly VLTT S 15 R, 18 Latil M7 T1 all terrain tractors for 25mm pieces...
the 16e BCP having only 20 VBCP the 12th may and no Latil

as you know the 4e BCP joining the famous de Gaulle's 4e DCr, who wasn't a true DCr but a mix with BCC and initial planned 4e DLM elements, did not have enough vehicles and was tranported by a Train unit, buses of the 863rd coach company of the Personnel Transport Group 147/44...


Image
http://www.histoireetcollections.com/fr ... 06901.html
Regards
Loïc L.

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 2624
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Actual organization of BCP of DCR in 1940

Post by Kelvin » 26 Jan 2018 06:22

Loïc wrote:Hello

I expected your intervention about a such topic Alain,
there is something in the GBM 79 (card cover below) by François Vauvillier the 4 BCP were not at all uniformized regarding their motorization
both 5e and 17e BCP Portés having each 43 instead of planned 61 VBCP (APC) Lorraine 38 L, such battalion had also 15 all-terrain VDP (APC) Lorraine 28, six all-terrain Laffly VLTT S 15 R, 18 Latil M7 T1 all terrain tractors for 25mm pieces...
the 16e BCP having only 20 VBCP the 12th may and no Latil

as you know the 4e BCP joining the famous de Gaulle's 4e DCr, who wasn't a true DCr but a mix with BCC and initial planned 4e DLM elements, did not have enough vehicles and was tranported by a Train unit, buses of the 863rd coach company of the Personnel Transport Group 147/44...


Image
http://www.histoireetcollections.com/fr ... 06901.html
Regards
Loïc L.
Hi, Loic, thank for your information, Did Lorraine 28 VDP was considered as APC too ? Thank.

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 2624
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Actual organization of BCP of DCR in 1940

Post by Kelvin » 26 Jan 2018 06:27

alain adam wrote:Hi Kelvin ,
I've made , long time ago , a specific text about BCP of each 4 DCRs and their armored vehicules . I will try to find it , to provide to you .
But , if i remember well , French had not produce suffisant quantities of Lorraine 38 , and , as an example , the 4th DCR's BCP batallion used bus ( yes ! ) instead of any armored vehicle . For a whole overview of DCR organisation , please look at :
http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/divers/DCuirs%201-0.pdf
and particulary for BCP , these information
http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/divers/odb.htm#BCPorté

Regards,
Alain
HI, Alain, thank for your reply, if you have additional information for each BCP, may you send me ? Thank

BTW, just my opinion, I always see French army used " bus " to transport soldiers, I see other army used truck to do that. Exactly what kind of bus of French army ? take over from civilizan and like civilisan double bus, if like that one bus can accomdate at least 80 men ? Do you know that ? Thank

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 792
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Actual organization of BCP of DCR in 1940

Post by Loïc » 26 Jan 2018 17:03

uupss, the VDP Voiture de Dragons Portés is not armoured - APC -, I lost my latin mixing french english abbreviations

about buses several Personnel Transport Groups of the Train came from the 1440 requisitioned parisian coaches of the Société des Transports en Commun de la Région Parisienne (STCRP) today RATP even some were converted into meat transport and few in military mobile bazaars for the Quatermaster Service, there were several types
e.g. for the 863rd company I don't know, such company and Group didn't come from Paris mobilisation centers

Image
Image

alain adam
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: 23 Dec 2017 19:58
Location: lyon

Re: Actual organization of BCP of DCR in 1940

Post by alain adam » 26 Jan 2018 20:47

Dear loïc ,
i've done the job many years ago ,with details on each model of vehicle , per BCP .
I have to find it ... Not very simple , i work on many subjects at the same time , and have datas on many hard disks , and , as you know work on this kind of subject since 12 years .
As my memory goes , you will find only Lorraine 38 for the combat troops in DCR 1,2 and 3 . others troops will have TTT vehicules in these organisations , it's why the organisation was not to have 63 VBCP .
In DCR 3 , i've a doubt on the full allocation of VBCP in my mind ( my memory say something like 23 ) . No allocation in the 4th DCR anyway .
Please let me time to find the text ... i'm not superman !

regards,
Alain
ATF40 ( Armée de Terre Française 1940 ) : French ground army in 1940 , website atf40.fr

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 2624
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Actual organization of BCP of DCR in 1940

Post by Kelvin » 27 Jan 2018 06:08

Hi, Loic, thank for your photo, bus is a single deck bus, I suppose it carry 12-16 men.

Return to “France 1919-1945”