Alpine squads types?

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Dili
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Alpine squads types?

#1

Post by Dili » 14 Mar 2018, 21:18

I trying to get info on Alpine type squads(combat group in French) i have found some that will post, but need confirmation i am not making mistakes. FM is an LMG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_24/29_ ... achine_gun

Squad of SES -Unit : Sections d'Eclaireurs Skieurs - 6 men armed with rifles - 5 SES combat group per platoon - one platoon in each BCA and BAF

Squad of BCA -Unit: Bat. Chasseurs Alpins - 7 men with 2 FM 24/29 comment: this seems like the reduced squad(groupe de combat réduit avec sept homme) of Machine gun battalions.

Squad of BIA - Unit: Bat.Infanterie Alpine -like the typical combat group 12 men, 1 FM 24/29, 1 VB launcher

Squad of BAF?- Unit: Battalion Alpins de Forteresse -?

A doubt that arose in meantime is what type of combat group had the Battalion Alpins de Forteresse (BAF) - they were to man the various Maginot fortresses in the Alps so in mostly a fortification garrison to operate the guns, mortars and machine guns of the ouvrages so i suspect they had a combat group resembling the chasseurs combat group - if that one is indeed correct.

How far off i am in my research?

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Re: Alpine squads types?

#2

Post by Kelvin » 02 Sep 2018, 12:53

I think RIF and BAF is different thing in their role but French word mislead it. The main component of RIF is Machine gun Battalion something like they find a good location to stop German advance by using MG. But BAF is something like infantry units. They had three Rifle companies with MG, 81mm mortar and 25mm or 37mm guns.


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Re: Alpine squads types?

#3

Post by jwsleser » 04 Sep 2018, 18:54

Sections d’éclaireurs-skieurs (SES). The following info is from 1940-1943 I diavoli bianchi by Luciano Viazzi page 29.

Viazzi states that a section is 35-40 men, organized into three combat groups, each with 12 men led by a sergeant. Each group was issued a FM 24/29. The term platoon was not used.

The following is from ELEMENTS REGIMENTAIRES DES DEMI-BRIGADES DE CHASSEURS DE LA 1ère DLCH

Section d’éclaireurs-skieurs

Section de commandement
1 chef de section f,
1 sergent-chef adjoint
1 caporal4 VB
1 observateur
1 agent de transmission

3 Groupe d’éclaireurs-skieurs each with:
1 sergent chef de groupe
1 caporal adjoint
demi groupe de fusiliers
1 tireur FM
1 chargeur
3 pourvoyeurs
demi groupe de voltigeurs
1 premier voltigeur
3 voltigeurs
1 grenadier VB

Pista! Jeff
Jeff Leser

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CNE503
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Re: Alpine squads types?

#4

Post by CNE503 » 08 Sep 2018, 19:17

Kelvin wrote:
02 Sep 2018, 12:53
I think RIF and BAF is different thing in their role but French word mislead it. The main component of RIF is Machine gun Battalion something like they find a good location to stop German advance by using MG. But BAF is something like infantry units. They had three Rifle companies with MG, 81mm mortar and 25mm or 37mm guns.
A Régiment d'infanterie de forteresse (RIF) was tasked with defending fortified sectors in the fortified borderline (the "ligne Maginot"). It was a "northeastern" unit, which usually included three battalions. A Bataillon alpin de forteresse (BAF) was one-third of this unit (only a battalion) used for the same mission, but only in the southeastern border with Italy.
French alpine units were all raised in the XIVth (Lyon), XVth (Marseille) and XVIth (Montpellier) military regions.

Cheers,

CNE503
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Kelvin
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Re: Alpine squads types?

#5

Post by Kelvin » 10 Sep 2018, 10:43

CNE503 wrote:
08 Sep 2018, 19:17
Kelvin wrote:
02 Sep 2018, 12:53
I think RIF and BAF is different thing in their role but French word mislead it. The main component of RIF is Machine gun Battalion something like they find a good location to stop German advance by using MG. But BAF is something like infantry units. They had three Rifle companies with MG, 81mm mortar and 25mm or 37mm guns.
A Régiment d'infanterie de forteresse (RIF) was tasked with defending fortified sectors in the fortified borderline (the "ligne Maginot"). It was a "northeastern" unit, which usually included three battalions. A Bataillon alpin de forteresse (BAF) was one-third of this unit (only a battalion) used for the same mission, but only in the southeastern border with Italy.
French alpine units were all raised in the XIVth (Lyon), XVth (Marseille) and XVIth (Montpellier) military regions.

Cheers,

CNE503

Hi, CNE503, only 16e DBAF had a machine gun battalion (6e MG btn), all other had 1-3 BAF.

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Re: Alpine squads types?

#6

Post by Loïc » 10 Sep 2018, 23:06

hello

not really, such unit as shows its number 6 was only an independant battalion renforcing the sector not belonging stricto sensu to the DBAF but to the 19 Machine-Gun Battalions (1er to 11e and 51e to 58e motorised)
actually the 16e DBAF had both 70e and 80e BAF, as the others BAF of the DBAF, except for serie B 230e DBAF, numbered in the series 70, 80, 90

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Re: Alpine squads types?

#7

Post by CNE503 » 11 Sep 2018, 00:56

DBAF (Demi-Brigade alpine de forteresse) had three battalions (Bataillons alpins de forteresse).
The equivalent of a Régiment d'infanterie de forteresse (RIF) was a DBAF, not a BAF.

Demi-brigade is a name from the Revolution wars, that appeared in the 1790s to change the old designation regiment, which looked too much royal army. The term regiment was reintroduced later (late 1790s or early 1800s). Demi-brigade was the usual term used for the corps des chasseurs (three battalions being a demi-brigade de chasseurs à pied) from the second part of the XIXth century and on. In 1939-1940, several infantry units were raised under this designation, the more famous one being the 13e Demi-brigade de Légion étrangère (DBLE) that fought in Narvik in 1940, joined de Gaulle, participated to the fights from 1941 to 1945 and is still active today.

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Dili
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Re: Alpine squads types?

#8

Post by Dili » 19 Sep 2018, 07:35

Apologies did not got a notification about answer to this post of mine.

Thanks Jeff seems i was mistaken probably due to terminology "section" . i probably listed the section commandment.

Terminology: how can a section can have another section as HQ and 3 dependent groups?

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Re: Alpine squads types?

#9

Post by CNE503 » 20 Sep 2018, 13:08

In the French army, a "section" (platoon, roughly between 25 and 60 soldiers) is organized in several "groupes" (squads, between three to twelve, depending on their nature). One of them is the "groupe de commandement" (command squad).

CNE503
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Dili
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Re: Alpine squads types?

#10

Post by Dili » 20 Sep 2018, 20:50

Groupe not section then. Thanks CNE503

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