French FT-17/31 question 1940

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Kelvin
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French FT-17/31 question 1940

#1

Post by Kelvin » 15 Sep 2018, 09:49

Hi, everyone, I would like to ask if all Renault FT-17 was renamed FT-31 and were armed with MG only ? And I see 2e Legere Chasseur Division and 2e Legere infantry division were equipped with Renault FT tank, are they all MG or still with 3.7 cm gun ? Thank

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Loïc
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Re: French FT question 1940

#2

Post by Loïc » 20 Sep 2018, 22:56

hello Kelvin

not all armed only with a machine-gun and even not named, first because FT-17 is a wrong term, so even more FT 17/31, in the french-speaking world the Armoured Arm & Tanks specialists used to launch hunts against the (ab)use of such names

the BCC still with FT tanks in 1939-1940 had usually 39 FT guns and 24 FT machine-guns Reibel 7.5mm mdle 1931

both FT companies for the CEFS, 343e and 344e CACC of the 2e DLCh. and 3e DLI were former 1st and 2nd companies of the 11e BCC

343e and 344e CACC had each 13 FT-guns and 8 FT-machine-guns Reibel 7.5mm mdle 1931

for the FT units in 1939-1940 by Alain Adam (pages 41 and following)
https://www.39-45.org/histomag/hm88.pdf

Regards
Loïc L.


Kelvin
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Re: French FT question 1940

#3

Post by Kelvin » 21 Sep 2018, 10:12

Loïc wrote:
20 Sep 2018, 22:56
hello Kelvin

not all armed only with a machine-gun and even not named, first because FT-17 is a wrong term, so even more FT 17/31, in the french-speaking world the Armoured Arm & Tanks specialists used to launch hunts against the (ab)use of such names

the BCC still with FT tanks in 1939-1940 had usually 39 FT guns and 24 FT machine-guns Reibel 7.5mm mdle 1931

both FT companies for the CEFS, 343e and 344e CACC of the 2e DLCh. and 3e DLI were former 1st and 2nd companies of the 11e BCC

343e and 344e CACC had each 13 FT-guns and 8 FT-machine-guns Reibel 7.5mm mdle 1931

for the FT units in 1939-1940 by Alain Adam (pages 41 and following)
https://www.39-45.org/histomag/hm88.pdf

Regards
Loïc L.

Hi, Loic, thank a lot. :D

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: French FT-17/31 question 1940

#4

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 22 Sep 2018, 20:45

May I change the subject slightly, with a new question. What companies or battalions of the FT series tanks were retained on combat status 1936-1939? I understand the companies and groups equipped with the FT tanks were being stood down or reequipped in those years. Some of the FT Chars being placed in storage, others to training schools or units, and others scrapped. I am trying to get a sense of how many tank battalions would have been mobilized for combat with these vehicles in 1936, or 37, & later years.

Thanks & Merci for any sources on this subject.

Kelvin
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Re: French FT-17/31 question 1940

#5

Post by Kelvin » 26 Sep 2018, 05:39

Hi, Loic, I see wiki say German captured 1,704 Renault FT 17/31, is it correct ? some sources say before war France only had 800 those machines.

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Re: French FT-17/31 question 1940

#6

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 27 Sep 2018, 07:18

I suspect 800 were in use, the balance were in storage, or possibly awaiting disposal as scrap. Some may have been misidentified as the Germans labeled captured equipment a bit differently that the original owners.

alain adam
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Re: French FT-17/31 question 1940

#7

Post by alain adam » 17 Oct 2018, 16:11

Hello ,
I can provide more detailled informations for figures ...

September 1939 :
BCC : 6 , 11 , 18 , 29 , 30 , 31 , 32 , 33 , 36 , BCTC : 63 FT tanks ( 39 with gun , 24 with machine-gun )
BCC “de manoeuvre” : 40 , 41 , 42 , 43 , 44 , 45 , 46 , 47 , 48 : 33 FT tanks ( machine gun only )

November 1939 :
BCC : 11 , 18 , 29 , 30 , 31 , 33 , 36 , BCTC
BCC “de manoeuvre” : 40 , 45 , 48

10 May 1940 :
BCC : 11 , 18 , 29 , 30 , 31 , 33 , 36 , BCTC
BCC ( “de manoeuvre” ) : 40 , 48
BIC ( « instruction » ) : 101 , 102 , 103 , 104 , 105 ,106 ,107 ,108 ,109 ,110 : 2*24 and 8*33 FT tanks ( machine gun only )
“Sections regionales” : 200 FT tanks ( machine gun only ) : 4 tanks per section
Instruction , depot , republican mobile guard , reserve tanks : close to 500 ( in this, 230+ without armament )
Reserve in Gien’s park : close to 1000 ( only few with turret but no armament )

General total for may 1940 : ( in France , without colonies )
-close to 1280 FT tanks with armament ( at least 325 with SA.18 37mm Gun , others with Reibel or Hotchkiss machine-gun )
-close to 230 FT tanks without armament , but a turret
-close to 1000 FT tanks ( only few with turret : estimation 150 , but without armament . Many of them not able to move , and "cannibalized" for spare parts )

Alain
ATF40 ( Armée de Terre Française 1940 ) : French ground army in 1940 , website atf40.fr

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jpz4
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Re: French FT-17/31 question 1940

#8

Post by jpz4 » 17 Oct 2018, 17:02

Thanks for the numbers Alain. Do you happen to know if there are photos of the turret less tanks at Gien? I'm asking because all the photos I have seen from Gien show turrets.

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Re: French FT-17/31 question 1940

#9

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 17 Oct 2018, 17:50

Thanks to Alain Adam as well.

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Re: French FT-17/31 question 1940

#10

Post by alain adam » 17 Oct 2018, 20:24

Hi jpz4 ,
Your remark is good : i've never seen this kind of photos . It should be interesting to have germans photos made in june 1940 or after .
But , analysing utilisation of Gien's tank till mid june , they don't provide more than 150/200 FT tanks with a turret ( armed after with a FM 24/29 ) - if they have possibility they should had dispatched more tanks - , and the report of Gien's evacuation give nothing about remants armed FT tanks abandonned . At the opposite , i know many of these tanks were used as spare parts to consolidate tank's depots stocks and repair ( or exchange ) tanks used in BCC .
To complete these informations , when germans came to Gien , they "make a jump" from close to 500 FT tanks recovered , to 1200/1500 , and after war , i guess in august , they report 1704 . Frenchs officers in Riom trial declared Gien's stock was only made of tank chassis non usable , to explain these figures , and i'm confident with this . Of course germans want to glorify their victory , counting obsolete tanks ( and non usable tanks ) in their figures .
I can add , many FT turrets was used in the Maginot line , and many SA18 guns used to arm R35 , H35 and FCM36 - it's why only BCC used some FT with 37mm gun ..
So , it means , depending of the photo date , you could see many tanks with turret and armed ( i.e. nov/dec 1939 or before ), but for me , it's quite impossible end june , because frenchies try to use everything ( "racler les fonds de tiroir") from may 25 to mid june .
Of course, i've no official report to detail Gien's tank stock day per day , and maybe i'm wrong , but at least you can trust me for the utilisation of close to 1300 FT tanks armed in may 1940 .
If you've some photos from Gien made after the France battle , i'm very interrested .

Loïc gave a link to my article on this subject , and (in it) you will find tables for may , and later units creations at the end of the text .

Just to add something maybe ridiculous , but interesting , French army kept in stock quite the same quantity of "1918 victory's tank" than panzer engaged in France in 1940 . Of course, they had moderns tanks in addition :)

Alain
ATF40 ( Armée de Terre Française 1940 ) : French ground army in 1940 , website atf40.fr

alain adam
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Re: French FT-17/31 question 1940

#11

Post by alain adam » 17 Oct 2018, 20:46

Kelvin wrote:
15 Sep 2018, 09:49
Hi, everyone, I would like to ask if all Renault FT-17 was renamed FT-31 and were armed with MG only ? And I see 2e Legere Chasseur Division and 2e Legere infantry division were equipped with Renault FT tank, are they all MG or still with 3.7 cm gun ? Thank
Just a little explanation for this .
In 1929/1930 , France launch a modernization project for the tanks , and it become effective in 1935/36 with the firsts moderns tanks .
To kept usable tank force , waiting new tanks , a program of modernisation for FT tanks was done , repairing and replacing some parts and the machine gun ( with a Reibel 7.5mm MAC 31 ) . The armament of FT-gun was not changed, but tanks were revised .
But , there's no official name of "FT 31" in french nomenclature , only a mark on the tank "revised 1931" .
Germans create a distinction of FT-17 and FT-18 , early in the war ( depending of the turret ) . Probably , they should create a "FT-31" to make a difference between tank armed with an hotchkiss and tank armed with a reibel machinegun , or a "prolific" modern author create this , i don't know .

Anyway , this is not an official french name , you have to use only FT-gun or FT-machinegun , from 1917 to 1945 and later .
( there is 2 main exception , non used in 1940 in France : FT-TSF and FT-BS Gun )

Alain
ATF40 ( Armée de Terre Française 1940 ) : French ground army in 1940 , website atf40.fr

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