French army in 1939.

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Thorson
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French army in 1939.

Post by Thorson » 14 May 2019 18:49

Hello. Is there a person who has an OOB in the French army on 1 or 3 September?

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: French army in 1939.

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 20 May 2019 18:13

Not specifically, with several hours work I could assemble one, about 90% complete.

What do you need this for?

Stiltzkin
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Re: French army in 1939.

Post by Stiltzkin » 20 May 2019 19:09

Hello. Is there a person who has an OOB in the French army on 1 or 3 September?
You could try the Nafziger collection, but I believe it mostly refers to August (the source he used: Etat-Major de l'Armée de Terre, Service Historique, Guerre 1939-1945, Les Grandes Unités Francaises Historiques Succincts, 1967, Paris, Imprimerie Nationale)

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Loïc
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Re: French army in 1939.

Post by Loïc » 20 May 2019 20:09

hello

the 1st or 3rd september 1939 the French Army, not counting the active Divisions of course, is being mobilised so the units were mostly still in the military regions where they should be raised

e.g. in 13rd Military Region, the 25e DIM (active) quickly reached the Northeast as couverture but the 26e DI (serie A) joined Lorraine not before 10th to mid-september, the 63e DI (serie B) left at the same date

there were to be organized for the field Army on metropolitan France in september 1939

2 Groups of Armies
8 Armies
2 Army Detachments of the Ardennes and of Pyrénées (this last one with 3 Sectors facing Spain)
23 Army Corps of which one Colonial, one Cavalry, one Fortress
55 Infantry Divisions (20 active, 17 serie A, 18 serie B)
7 DIC
5 DINA
3 Cavalry Divisions
2 DLM
24 Fortified and Defensive Sectors of the Maginot Line (20 North and Northeast; 4 Alps)
many others General Reserve, Regional, Coastal units etc...


deployment on the maps early september 1939
http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/
http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/divers/cartes ... 9_2_p1.JPG
http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/divers/cartes ... 9_2_p2.JPG

Regards
Loïc Lilian

Thorson
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Re: French army in 1939.

Post by Thorson » 25 May 2019 08:47

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
20 May 2019 18:13
Not specifically, with several hours work I could assemble one, about 90% complete.

What do you need this for?
I do a historical work on the myths in Polish history about 110 French divisions ready for war, etc.
I know that France had a division 33 division on September 1, but I do not have numbers.

Thorson
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Re: French army in 1939.

Post by Thorson » 25 May 2019 08:49

Loïc wrote:
20 May 2019 20:09
hello

the 1st or 3rd september 1939 the French Army, not counting the active Divisions of course, is being mobilised so the units were mostly still in the military regions where they should be raised

e.g. in 13rd Military Region, the 25e DIM (active) quickly reached the Northeast as couverture but the 26e DI (serie A) joined Lorraine not before 10th to mid-september, the 63e DI (serie B) left at the same date

there were to be organized for the field Army on metropolitan France in september 1939

2 Groups of Armies
8 Armies
2 Army Detachments of the Ardennes and of Pyrénées (this last one with 3 Sectors facing Spain)
23 Army Corps of which one Colonial, one Cavalry, one Fortress
55 Infantry Divisions (20 active, 17 serie A, 18 serie B)
7 DIC
5 DINA
3 Cavalry Divisions
2 DLM
24 Fortified and Defensive Sectors of the Maginot Line (20 North and Northeast; 4 Alps)
many others General Reserve, Regional, Coastal units etc...


deployment on the maps early september 1939
http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/
http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/divers/cartes ... 9_2_p1.JPG
http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/divers/cartes ... 9_2_p2.JPG

Regards
Loïc Lilian

I have maps, but they are in poor quality and hard to read.
Seriously, finding a few divisions on this map is bordering on a miracle.

Thorson
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Re: French army in 1939.

Post by Thorson » 25 May 2019 09:27

Stiltzkin wrote:
20 May 2019 19:09
Hello. Is there a person who has an OOB in the French army on 1 or 3 September?
You could try the Nafziger collection, but I believe it mostly refers to August (the source he used: Etat-Major de l'Armée de Terre, Service Historique, Guerre 1939-1945, Les Grandes Unités Francaises Historiques Succincts, 1967, Paris, Imprimerie Nationale)
Would you send me a picture of OOB Nafziger in a private message?

Stiltzkin
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Re: French army in 1939.

Post by Stiltzkin » 25 May 2019 14:31

Would you send me a picture of OOB Nafziger in a private message?
https://de.scribd.com/doc/133832396/Naf ... ttle-Index
They are actually available online.
https://usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/ ... 39FIAA.pdf
https://usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/ ... 39FIAB.pdf
https://usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/ ... 39FHAB.pdf

There is also information on the Saar Offensive (OOB): viewtopic.php?t=169433

Thorson
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Re: French army in 1939.

Post by Thorson » 25 May 2019 19:20

Thank you <3

Thorson
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Re: French army in 1939.

Post by Thorson » 25 May 2019 22:14

But Nafziger's Order de Bataille is strange, God. All in all, I think Niehorster showed OOB best.

Thorson
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Re: French army in 1939.

Post by Thorson » 04 Jun 2019 10:32

Loïc wrote:
20 May 2019 20:09
hello

the 1st or 3rd september 1939 the French Army, not counting the active Divisions of course, is being mobilised so the units were mostly still in the military regions where they should be raised

e.g. in 13rd Military Region, the 25e DIM (active) quickly reached the Northeast as couverture but the 26e DI (serie A) joined Lorraine not before 10th to mid-september, the 63e DI (serie B) left at the same date

there were to be organized for the field Army on metropolitan France in september 1939

2 Groups of Armies
8 Armies
2 Army Detachments of the Ardennes and of Pyrénées (this last one with 3 Sectors facing Spain)
23 Army Corps of which one Colonial, one Cavalry, one Fortress
55 Infantry Divisions (20 active, 17 serie A, 18 serie B)
7 DIC
5 DINA
3 Cavalry Divisions
2 DLM
24 Fortified and Defensive Sectors of the Maginot Line (20 North and Northeast; 4 Alps)
many others General Reserve, Regional, Coastal units etc...


deployment on the maps early september 1939
http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/
http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/divers/cartes ... 9_2_p1.JPG
http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/divers/cartes ... 9_2_p2.JPG

Regards
Loïc Lilian

From these maps comes out that France had 9 divisions on the German border on September 2?
The map with the Saar offensive is also strange. It turns out that on September 24 France has 33 divisions, and from what I read in this forum until the end of the mobilization she was to have 56 divisions on the German front.

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Loïc
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Re: French army in 1939.

Post by Loïc » 06 Jun 2019 01:54

Both depending what has been counted as "german" front-"german" border instead of the whole Northeastern Front from Dunkirk/Maritime Flander to Switzerland

the 24th september the offensive of the Sarre concerned mainly the sectors of the 3e 4e 5e Armée shown on the map, so there were ~32 divisions of these 3 armies of the Group of Armies n°2 near the german border
http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/divers/cartes ... 9_24_z.JPG
a part of 8e Armée is also facing Germany, but certainly not the rest of the Divisions belonging to the sectors of 1ère 2e Armée and the Army Detacht. of the Ardennes facing Belgium


for the 2nd september facing Germany and vicinity
sector 3e Armée 2e DINA facing Luxemburg 9e 25e DIM 42e DI
sector 4e Armée 4e DINA 11e 21e DI
sector 5e Armée 3e 4e DIC 43e DI
sector 8e Armée 13e 14e DI 2e DC, but 2 divisions facing more the Swiss border than the german border

Thorson
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Re: French army in 1939.

Post by Thorson » 06 Jun 2019 09:44

Loïc wrote:
06 Jun 2019 01:54
Both depending what has been counted as "german" front-"german" border instead of the whole Northeastern Front from Dunkirk/Maritime Flander to Switzerland

the 24th september the offensive of the Sarre concerned mainly the sectors of the 3e 4e 5e Armée shown on the map, so there were ~32 divisions of these 3 armies of the Group of Armies n°2 near the german border
http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/divers/cartes ... 9_24_z.JPG
a part of 8e Armée is also facing Germany, but certainly not the rest of the Divisions belonging to the sectors of 1ère 2e Armée and the Army Detacht. of the Ardennes facing Belgium


for the 2nd september facing Germany and vicinity
sector 3e Armée 2e DINA facing Luxemburg 9e 25e DIM 42e DI
sector 4e Armée 4e DINA 11e 21e DI
sector 5e Armée 3e 4e DIC 43e DI
sector 8e Armée 13e 14e DI 2e DC, but 2 divisions facing more the Swiss border than the german border
Thank you for your response.
It means that the 32 division is the north-east front and there were to be 56 divisions on the German (450km) front with the Rhine?
My point is that on the whole front with Germany (450km) there were 56 French divisions or should it be?

Thorson
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Re: French army in 1939.

Post by Thorson » 06 Jun 2019 10:21

Okay, on the border with Germany on September 2 there were 10 divisions, as you write. I am counting 3.4 and 5 army.
Regards.

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Loïc
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Re: French army in 1939.

Post by Loïc » 06 Jun 2019 14:33

It is all the opposite, the Northeastern Front covers the borders from the sea Dunkirk along Belgian then Luxemburger then German to Swiss borders
so that is why they saw 56 divisions of which 32 were really along german border(facing Sarre Palatinat areas and the Rhine) or its vicinity in Alsace and in Moselle belonging to GA n°2 (3e 4e 5e Armée) at the time of Sarre Offensive,
the rest (1ère 2e Armée Ardennes Detacht.) was along Belgian border
not counted in this sub-total of 32 the 8e Armée in southern Alsace having also 13e 14e 47e DI near the german border/Rhine until Bâle, Switzerland

given the fact that the 6e Armée of the Alps had 11 divisions facing Italy, 2 more around Paris, 60e still in the west and 67e DI still in the Pyrénées facing Spain, there were 15 divisions remaining in the Interior and Alpine border/southeastern theater of the 72 mobilised in metropolitan France in september 1939

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