Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Discussions on all aspects of France during the Inter-War era and Second World War.
Kelvin
Member
Posts: 2640
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Kelvin » 13 Feb 2020 15:28

Hi, everyone, I would like to ask if French 1er Cavalry Brigade and 3e Spahi Brigade were trapped in Alsace Lorriane by Guderian Panzergruppe and Heeresgruppe C ?

And organic Units of VI, XII, XIII, XX, XXI and Colonial Army Corps were also trapped in Alsace-Lorraine like 8e, 14e, 15e, 22e, 23e and 24e GRCA and 103e, 109e, 112e, 116e, 120e and 11e Colonial Corps Artillery Regiments and 606e, 612e, 613e, 620e, 621e and 622e Pioneer Regiment ? Thank

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 826
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Loïc » 15 Feb 2020 00:23

hello

all these units, both Horse Brigades and the various Army Corps elements were included in the great encirclement of the Armies of the East in the Vosges ~22/23th june 1940, the 116e RAL being partially captured and partially interned reaching Switzerland...

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 2640
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Kelvin » 15 Feb 2020 08:17

Loïc wrote:
15 Feb 2020 00:23
hello

all these units, both Horse Brigades and the various Army Corps elements were included in the great encirclement of the Armies of the East in the Vosges ~22/23th june 1940, the 116e RAL being partially captured and partially interned reaching Switzerland...
Hello, Loic, thank so much for your help. I suppose three Armies organic Units : 403e, 405e, 408e, 413e, 415e, 418e, 423e, 425e and 428e Pioneer Regiments and also all 29 Fortress Regiments were trapped also ? Thank

And encirclement of 3e Cuirassee Division near Djion on 18th June 1940 was considered as part of Alsace-Lorraine encirclement ? Thank

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 826
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Loïc » 15 Feb 2020 16:35

hello

except some possible escaped elements, same fate, mainly captured or interned into Switzerland

Dijon it is Burgundy, an other area
it was because the germans coming from Champagne invading Burgundy then reaching Franche-Comté that the encirclement has been accomplished against the 3 Armies in the Vosges

Image
Image

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 2640
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Kelvin » 17 Feb 2020 04:25

Loïc wrote:
15 Feb 2020 16:35
hello

except some possible escaped elements, same fate, mainly captured or interned into Switzerland

Dijon it is Burgundy, an other area
it was because the germans coming from Champagne invading Burgundy then reaching Franche-Comté that the encirclement has been accomplished against the 3 Armies in the Vosges

Image
Image

Hi, Loic, thank for your Information. That mean 3e DIM was out of pocket.

BTW, in Flander pocket, actally only 1er and 7e Armee were considered being trapped in pocket and 9e Armee was not in pocket but only was defeated in Center ? Thank

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 826
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Loïc » 19 Feb 2020 01:48

hello

the 9e Armée never reach the Center, having suffered the main shock with Sedan, was considered as destroyed in the following days and disbanded the 21st may, the Army Staff and elements served as nucleus of the newly-created 10e Armée at the end of may who ended in Brittany the 18th june

was the 7e Armée who finished the campaign in the Center

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 2640
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Kelvin » 19 Feb 2020 06:09

Loïc wrote:
19 Feb 2020 01:48
hello

the 9e Armée never reach the Center, having suffered the main shock with Sedan, was considered as destroyed in the following days and disbanded the 21st may, the Army Staff and elements served as nucleus of the newly-created 10e Armée at the end of may who ended in Brittany the 18th june

was the 7e Armée who finished the campaign in the Center
Hi, Loic, thank you for your help. But perhaps you misunderstood my Question. My Question is linked to Fall Gelb, another pocket previous to Alsace Lorraine.
Let say 1er Armee and 7e Armee rushed to Belgium and Holland respectively and considered as left wing, 9e Armee and 2e Armee was considered as centre in Ardennes and Sedan area and also Joint of French Army facing German. Army Group 2 in Alsace Lorriane was acted as Right wing.

German panzer troop break through French troop at Sedan, Montherme and Dinant and then rushed to the English Channel and cut off the French left wing in Holland and Belgium. So I think both Armies were trapped in Flander pocket. but many books also mentions three French Armies trapped in pocket, including 9e Armee, but technically it is incorrect, so I would like to ask your view or view from French historians.

BTW, the origin of Fall Gelb seemed like the battle plan of Napoleon in battle of Austerlitz : drew the enemy Deep into his Right wing and left wing holds the enemy and then Napoleon used his hidden troop to broke through Austro-Russian troop 's centre and crushed and cut off enemy isolated left wing. Hitler plan was just a huge scale of Austerlitz.

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 826
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Loïc » 28 Feb 2020 19:43

Hello

o.k. :idea: the capital «C» for Center lost me geographically

it is not a question of French or alien view I think, the 9e Armée disintegrated in few days virtually destroyed has ceased to be a coherente set, a cohesive structure, so maybe some authors choose to include it in the pocket probably because its HQ Staff with Général Giraud with others elements were taken inside/in the interior of the panzer scythe while actually remnants of others Divisions escaped from the german armored jaws reaching Picardy Normandy and even the Center with capital C, so quite complicated to describe its situation as an "Army"
GBMCARTE.PNG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 2640
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Kelvin » 29 Feb 2020 06:04

Loïc wrote:
28 Feb 2020 19:43
Hello

o.k. :idea: the capital «C» for Center lost me geographically

it is not a question of French or alien view I think, the 9e Armée disintegrated in few days virtually destroyed has ceased to be a coherente set, a cohesive structure, so maybe some authors choose to include it in the pocket probably because its HQ Staff with Général Giraud with others elements were taken inside/in the interior of the panzer scythe while actually remnants of others Divisions escaped from the german armored jaws reaching Picardy Normandy and even the Center with capital C, so quite complicated to describe its situation as an "Army"
GBMCARTE.PNG
Hello, Loic, thank for your map and comment. That 's what I think too. French 9th Army and part of 2nd Army was Joint between the allied forces something like US 1st Army in another Ardennes offensive of 1944. Once the 1st Army 's lines was broken, German thrust northward and cut off British 2nd Army and Canadian 1st Army, causing them surrender or carrying out another Dunkirk. Hitler plan in 1944 was same as in 1940. 1940 Victims were BEF and French Army Group One and Belgian Army.

General Giraud, exactly his post is somewhat confused. He was commander of 7th Army and his army was disbanded and he was appointed as 9th Army commander but when never took the command of that Army as he was taken POW on his way to 9th Army HQ.

Return to “France 1919-1945”