French armour & fuel allocation?
French armour & fuel allocation?
During the Battle for France 1940, the British Army lost 25% of it's armour to enemy action whilst the remainder was lost due to mechanical faults.
However in the French Army, some 50% of its armour was lost due to the tanks running out of fuel. Now this wasn't due to supply difficulties caused by the Germans but the French policy of only giving their tanks 5hours supply
Can anyone explain the reasoning behind this policy
Andy H
However in the French Army, some 50% of its armour was lost due to the tanks running out of fuel. Now this wasn't due to supply difficulties caused by the Germans but the French policy of only giving their tanks 5hours supply
Can anyone explain the reasoning behind this policy
Andy H
- David Lehmann
- Member
- Posts: 2863
- Joined: 01 Apr 2002, 11:50
- Location: France
Hello,
I am really not sure about your figures. The attack of the 1st AD (General Evans) on Abbevile on May 27th for example failed in two hours. From initially 180 tanks, 120 were lost (69 cruisers - A9, A13 - and 51 light tanks - MkVIB -). 65 completely destroyed and 55 heavily damaged.
Concerning the French tanks I have no data confirming your 50% figure about tanks abandonned due to lack of fuel ... I think in Montcornet the attack was stopped indeed because of lack of fuel and the tanks fought where they were, most of them being destroyed by enemy fire. I have read about armored cars and tanks sometimes supplying in civilian gas station also. I see hardly where there was a French HQ will to reduce the fuel supply, it was made difficult because of the German aerial bombings of all the rail-roads, road crossings and their terror bombings who propulsed millions of refugees on the roads, delaying or blocking the advancing French troops.
Nevertheless many French tanks where abandonned due to mechanical failures but in combat they were also destroyed or damaged ... there are plenty of examples of French tanks (not only B1bis heavy tanks) coming back with 15 to 120 shell impacts.
About the fuel issue, all I can say is that each heavy tank company for example had the fuel required for "4 days" of operations without being supplied by units higher than the battalion level :
- "1 day" in the tanks of the company themselves (10x 400l for the 10 B1bis tanks)
- "1 day" thanks to the Lorraine 37L TRC of the company (6x565l = 3390l)
- "1 day" thanks to the fuel tank truck of the company (3600l)
- "1 day" for each combat company thanks to the 50l fuel barrels provided by the battalion's supply company
Even if "one day" would be reduced to "5 hours" that makes already 20 hours of fuel at the battalion level, without external supply ... assuming that the Stukas had not destroyed the trucls and tractors.
For the tank recovery there were also 3 towing trucks/wreckers and 3 trailer in the battalion. (3x Somua MCL5 tow trucks and 3x 30t trailer for a B1Bis battalion).
Concerning the transport of the tanks :
Until 1935/1937 most of the tank carriers were simply trucks with an embarcation ramp allowing the truck to carry the tank. This solution had been adopted in the 20's for strategical movements.
For the new light tanks (R35, FCM36, H35, H38, H39 ...) special lifting-transporter trucks (camions "leveurs-porteurs") were also developped : Berliet GPE2 (1 produced), Berliet GPE3 (2 produced), Berliet GPE4 (32 produced) and Willeme DW12A truck (5 produced).
The theoretical strength was at first 3 lifting-transporter trucks for a battalion of 45 light tanks and later only 1 lifting-transporter truck complemented by 2 simple tank carrier trucks with no special device except a winch and an embarcation/disembarcation ramp. Of these tank carriers, 430 Bernard trucks had been ordered for example, but only 73 were delivered. 300 White-Ruxtall 922 US tank carriers had also been ordered but only one vehicle could be delivered.
Medium (D2, Somua S-35 ...) or heavy (B1 and B1bis) tanks needed a dedicated trailer towed by a tractor (Somua MCL5, Somua MCL6, Laffly S35T, Laffly S45T or Latil M4T). There were two types of trailers : 20t and 30t. These trailers were produced by Titan, Coder, Lagache & Glazmann ... Theoretically there should be one trailer for a company of 10 Renault B1bis and two trailers for a squadron of 20 Somua S-35 cavalry tanks. Only sixty 20t trailers and forty 30t trailers had been delivered to the French army.
Concerning the wreckers :
From 1935 the typical tow truck was the Somua MCL5, but this vehicle reached its limits with the B serie heavy tanks because of its only 90 hp engine. Therefore the Laffly S45T had been developped but only 12 vehicles were delivered, explaining that the Somua MCL5 was sometimes replaced by the Laffly S35T.
The Laffly S35 had been originally developped to tow the 155mm GPF, 155mm GPFT and 220mm C Mle1916 heavy mortar. Only 225 Laffly S35 had been delivered, 170 of them in the towing version with a winch. That means that the Somua MCL5 was still widely in use and that in the artillery units the heavy pieces were still mostly towed by vehicles like the Latil TARH2. All these wreckers should have been replaced by the huge Latil M4TX (8x8, 140 hp) but this one only reached the prototype level in 1940. The Latil M4TX could easily tow 100t, that is to say it could easily tow a B1bis tank with blocked or destroyed tracks.
TOTAL of the vehicles in a French heavy tank battalion :
- 1x Renault YS armored command car
- 7-10x VL = voiture de liaison = liaison car (Peugeot 402, Simca 5, Citroën 11BL, Renault Primaquatre ...)
- 5x VLTT = voiture de liaison tout terrain = liaison halftrack = Citroën-Kégresse P19 halftrack
- 1x VLTT Radio (Citroën-Kégresse P19 radio halftrack)
- 1x Ambulance truck
- 10x Radio light trucks
- 28x Light/medium trucks
- 18x Heavy trucks (Panhard, Renault, Rochet-Schneider)
- 4x Fuel tank trucks
- 3x Heavy trucks carrying 50l fuel barrels
- 3x Ammo trucks
- 5x Kitchen/food/supply trucks
- 18x Lorraine 37L TRC (= tracteur de ravitaillement en carburant = fuel supply tractor)
- 3x Somua MCL5 tow trucks
- 3x 30t trailer (tank transporter)
- 22x Motorcycles for liaison tasks (René Gillet G1, Gnôme Rhône XA, Terrot VATT)
- 22x Motorcycles with side-car
- 33x B1bis tanks (3 companies of 10 tanks + 1 replacement tank)
More than the fuel issue it was IMO the issue to recover damaged tanks ... due to the German advance but also sometimes due to the lack of dedicated wreckers.
The movement of the tanks units was sometimes impossible due to rail road bombings. They had to make big movements by road .... reching the combat area with tanks needing to be inspected, fixed but no time for that.
Otherwise I can imagine that several units were encircled and couldn't be supplied for a long time ... that could explain why fuel could have been restricted in several areas but I never heard of a policy of that nature on the whole front area.
Due to Blitkkrieg things where sometimes completly messed up in several sectors. The deep breakthrough of the German PzD reached dometimes HQs and supply dumps ... that could explain the reduction of fuel supply ... but also because of the lack of communication, of a rapidly evolving situation I assume that sometimes the HQ lost contact with a unit ... and how can you supply units where you don't know where they are exactly ... Well this last paragraph is just personal thoughts
Hope this helped a bit. I will later make a post about the fate of all the B1bis tanks of the 15e BCC if you would like to see it.
Sources :
- F. Vauvilier et J.M. Touraine (Massin)
"1939-40 : L'Automobile sous l'uniforme"
- Stéphane Bonnaud et François Vauvillier (Histoire et Collections)
"Chars B au combat, hommes et matériels du 15e BCC"
Regards,
David
I am really not sure about your figures. The attack of the 1st AD (General Evans) on Abbevile on May 27th for example failed in two hours. From initially 180 tanks, 120 were lost (69 cruisers - A9, A13 - and 51 light tanks - MkVIB -). 65 completely destroyed and 55 heavily damaged.
Concerning the French tanks I have no data confirming your 50% figure about tanks abandonned due to lack of fuel ... I think in Montcornet the attack was stopped indeed because of lack of fuel and the tanks fought where they were, most of them being destroyed by enemy fire. I have read about armored cars and tanks sometimes supplying in civilian gas station also. I see hardly where there was a French HQ will to reduce the fuel supply, it was made difficult because of the German aerial bombings of all the rail-roads, road crossings and their terror bombings who propulsed millions of refugees on the roads, delaying or blocking the advancing French troops.
Nevertheless many French tanks where abandonned due to mechanical failures but in combat they were also destroyed or damaged ... there are plenty of examples of French tanks (not only B1bis heavy tanks) coming back with 15 to 120 shell impacts.
About the fuel issue, all I can say is that each heavy tank company for example had the fuel required for "4 days" of operations without being supplied by units higher than the battalion level :
- "1 day" in the tanks of the company themselves (10x 400l for the 10 B1bis tanks)
- "1 day" thanks to the Lorraine 37L TRC of the company (6x565l = 3390l)
- "1 day" thanks to the fuel tank truck of the company (3600l)
- "1 day" for each combat company thanks to the 50l fuel barrels provided by the battalion's supply company
Even if "one day" would be reduced to "5 hours" that makes already 20 hours of fuel at the battalion level, without external supply ... assuming that the Stukas had not destroyed the trucls and tractors.
For the tank recovery there were also 3 towing trucks/wreckers and 3 trailer in the battalion. (3x Somua MCL5 tow trucks and 3x 30t trailer for a B1Bis battalion).
Concerning the transport of the tanks :
Until 1935/1937 most of the tank carriers were simply trucks with an embarcation ramp allowing the truck to carry the tank. This solution had been adopted in the 20's for strategical movements.
For the new light tanks (R35, FCM36, H35, H38, H39 ...) special lifting-transporter trucks (camions "leveurs-porteurs") were also developped : Berliet GPE2 (1 produced), Berliet GPE3 (2 produced), Berliet GPE4 (32 produced) and Willeme DW12A truck (5 produced).
The theoretical strength was at first 3 lifting-transporter trucks for a battalion of 45 light tanks and later only 1 lifting-transporter truck complemented by 2 simple tank carrier trucks with no special device except a winch and an embarcation/disembarcation ramp. Of these tank carriers, 430 Bernard trucks had been ordered for example, but only 73 were delivered. 300 White-Ruxtall 922 US tank carriers had also been ordered but only one vehicle could be delivered.
Medium (D2, Somua S-35 ...) or heavy (B1 and B1bis) tanks needed a dedicated trailer towed by a tractor (Somua MCL5, Somua MCL6, Laffly S35T, Laffly S45T or Latil M4T). There were two types of trailers : 20t and 30t. These trailers were produced by Titan, Coder, Lagache & Glazmann ... Theoretically there should be one trailer for a company of 10 Renault B1bis and two trailers for a squadron of 20 Somua S-35 cavalry tanks. Only sixty 20t trailers and forty 30t trailers had been delivered to the French army.
Concerning the wreckers :
From 1935 the typical tow truck was the Somua MCL5, but this vehicle reached its limits with the B serie heavy tanks because of its only 90 hp engine. Therefore the Laffly S45T had been developped but only 12 vehicles were delivered, explaining that the Somua MCL5 was sometimes replaced by the Laffly S35T.
The Laffly S35 had been originally developped to tow the 155mm GPF, 155mm GPFT and 220mm C Mle1916 heavy mortar. Only 225 Laffly S35 had been delivered, 170 of them in the towing version with a winch. That means that the Somua MCL5 was still widely in use and that in the artillery units the heavy pieces were still mostly towed by vehicles like the Latil TARH2. All these wreckers should have been replaced by the huge Latil M4TX (8x8, 140 hp) but this one only reached the prototype level in 1940. The Latil M4TX could easily tow 100t, that is to say it could easily tow a B1bis tank with blocked or destroyed tracks.
TOTAL of the vehicles in a French heavy tank battalion :
- 1x Renault YS armored command car
- 7-10x VL = voiture de liaison = liaison car (Peugeot 402, Simca 5, Citroën 11BL, Renault Primaquatre ...)
- 5x VLTT = voiture de liaison tout terrain = liaison halftrack = Citroën-Kégresse P19 halftrack
- 1x VLTT Radio (Citroën-Kégresse P19 radio halftrack)
- 1x Ambulance truck
- 10x Radio light trucks
- 28x Light/medium trucks
- 18x Heavy trucks (Panhard, Renault, Rochet-Schneider)
- 4x Fuel tank trucks
- 3x Heavy trucks carrying 50l fuel barrels
- 3x Ammo trucks
- 5x Kitchen/food/supply trucks
- 18x Lorraine 37L TRC (= tracteur de ravitaillement en carburant = fuel supply tractor)
- 3x Somua MCL5 tow trucks
- 3x 30t trailer (tank transporter)
- 22x Motorcycles for liaison tasks (René Gillet G1, Gnôme Rhône XA, Terrot VATT)
- 22x Motorcycles with side-car
- 33x B1bis tanks (3 companies of 10 tanks + 1 replacement tank)
More than the fuel issue it was IMO the issue to recover damaged tanks ... due to the German advance but also sometimes due to the lack of dedicated wreckers.
The movement of the tanks units was sometimes impossible due to rail road bombings. They had to make big movements by road .... reching the combat area with tanks needing to be inspected, fixed but no time for that.
Otherwise I can imagine that several units were encircled and couldn't be supplied for a long time ... that could explain why fuel could have been restricted in several areas but I never heard of a policy of that nature on the whole front area.
Due to Blitkkrieg things where sometimes completly messed up in several sectors. The deep breakthrough of the German PzD reached dometimes HQs and supply dumps ... that could explain the reduction of fuel supply ... but also because of the lack of communication, of a rapidly evolving situation I assume that sometimes the HQ lost contact with a unit ... and how can you supply units where you don't know where they are exactly ... Well this last paragraph is just personal thoughts
Hope this helped a bit. I will later make a post about the fate of all the B1bis tanks of the 15e BCC if you would like to see it.
Sources :
- F. Vauvilier et J.M. Touraine (Massin)
"1939-40 : L'Automobile sous l'uniforme"
- Stéphane Bonnaud et François Vauvillier (Histoire et Collections)
"Chars B au combat, hommes et matériels du 15e BCC"
Regards,
David
Re: French armour & fuel allocation?
Andy H wrote:During the Battle for France 1940, the British Army lost 25% of it's armour to enemy action whilst the remainder was lost due to mechanical faults.
However in the French Army, some 50% of its armour was lost due to the tanks running out of fuel. Now this wasn't due to supply difficulties caused by the Germans but the French policy of only giving their tanks 5hours supply
Can anyone explain the reasoning behind this policy
Andy H
I suspect your numbers for the british tanks were a bit inacurte as well. With most of the british tanks cut off in the pocket the I suspect the numbers lost to supply problems during france 40 to be extremly high. Or at least abn and des by crew.
Panzermeyer wrote:Hello,
About the fuel issue, all I can say is that each heavy tank company for example had the fuel required for "4 days" of operations without being supplied by units higher than the battalion level :
- "1 day" in the tanks of the company themselves (10x 400l for the 10 B1bis tanks)
- "1 day" thanks to the Lorraine 37L TRC of the company (6x565l = 3390l)
- "1 day" thanks to the fuel tank truck of the company (3600l)
- "1 day" for each combat company thanks to the 50l fuel barrels provided by the battalion's supply company
Even if "one day" would be reduced to "5 hours" that makes already 20 hours of fuel at the battalion level, without external supply ... assuming that the Stukas had not destroyed the trucls and tractors.
The movement of the tanks units was sometimes impossible due to rail road bombings. They had to make big movements by road .... reching the combat area with tanks needing to be inspected, fixed but no time for that.
Otherwise I can imagine that several units were encircled and couldn't be supplied for a long time ... that could explain why fuel could have been restricted in several areas but I never heard of a policy of that nature on the whole front area.
Due to Blitkkrieg things where sometimes completly messed up in several sectors. The deep breakthrough of the German PzD reached dometimes HQs and supply dumps ... that could explain the reduction of fuel supply ... but also because of the lack of communication, of a rapidly evolving situation I assume that sometimes the HQ lost contact with a unit ... and how can you supply units where you don't know where they are exactly ... Well this last paragraph is just personal thoughts
Hope this helped a bit. I will later make a post about the fate of all the B1bis tanks of the 15e BCC if you would like to see it.
Sources :
- F. Vauvilier et J.M. Touraine (Massin)
"1939-40 : L'Automobile sous l'uniforme"
- Stéphane Bonnaud et François Vauvillier (Histoire et Collections)
"Chars B au combat, hommes et matériels du 15e BCC"
Regards,
David
If tanks had to march by road they would arrive empty on the battlefiled. While the tank bat should have enough fuel for 4 days the fuel did not travel with the tanks into battle but stayed at a rear supply point. During inital movements to the front the location of this supply point would be difficult to pinpoint.
The 50 gal drums were very difficult to handle and were large and easier to hit target. The ger used smaller easier to handle harder to hit jerry cans. I've also heard the french used real civialian type fuel trucks which were extremly large and vul. Not to mention difficult to get as far fwd as possible off road.
- David Lehmann
- Member
- Posts: 2863
- Joined: 01 Apr 2002, 11:50
- Location: France
We are here talking about company and battalion level, the tanks are not that far away. The fuel trucks and fuel barrels were usualy not used to supply directly the tanks but to supply the Lorraine 37L tractors for example wich were dedicated to supply the tanks.
Various fuel trucks where used by the French army for the strategical transport of fuel :
Unic SU55 (5000 l) : 23
Panhard K125 (5000 l) : 4
Berliet VDCN (5000 l) : 80
Renault AGR (5000 l) : 16
Renault AGK (5000 l) : 340
Berliet GDR7 (5000 l) : 400
Matford F917-WS (5000 l) : 150
Willeme (18000 l) : 0-50
Renault AIB1 (9500 l) : ?
Also a few White 920 (8000 l and 18000 l), Mack EXBX (18000l) and several Chevrolet conversions.
etc. + civilian requisitioned trucks.
The French Air force used also other trucks.
For the cross-country/tactical supply on the battlefield you had other vehicles :
Lorraine 37L TRC as mentionned (565 l fuel + ammo + oil + water) : 482
Renault 36R tractor with a 450 l trailer : 260
Laffly/Hotchkiss S20 TL (1450 - 1900 l) : 39
Lorraine 28 (2000 l) : a dozen
Citroen-Kégresse P17 (2000 l) : 50
+ special dedicated trailers (450 l, 600 l and 800 l models) that could be towed by the tanks themselves, by tractors or tankettes.
The Lorraine 37L TRC was very liked because of its armor + good cross country capacity, he could supply the first line troops :
Various fuel trucks where used by the French army for the strategical transport of fuel :
Unic SU55 (5000 l) : 23
Panhard K125 (5000 l) : 4
Berliet VDCN (5000 l) : 80
Renault AGR (5000 l) : 16
Renault AGK (5000 l) : 340
Berliet GDR7 (5000 l) : 400
Matford F917-WS (5000 l) : 150
Willeme (18000 l) : 0-50
Renault AIB1 (9500 l) : ?
Also a few White 920 (8000 l and 18000 l), Mack EXBX (18000l) and several Chevrolet conversions.
etc. + civilian requisitioned trucks.
The French Air force used also other trucks.
For the cross-country/tactical supply on the battlefield you had other vehicles :
Lorraine 37L TRC as mentionned (565 l fuel + ammo + oil + water) : 482
Renault 36R tractor with a 450 l trailer : 260
Laffly/Hotchkiss S20 TL (1450 - 1900 l) : 39
Lorraine 28 (2000 l) : a dozen
Citroen-Kégresse P17 (2000 l) : 50
+ special dedicated trailers (450 l, 600 l and 800 l models) that could be towed by the tanks themselves, by tractors or tankettes.
The Lorraine 37L TRC was very liked because of its armor + good cross country capacity, he could supply the first line troops :
- Attachments
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- Lorraine 37L TRC (tracteur de ravitaillement de char = with a fuel tank)_1.jpg (53.05 KiB) Viewed 1384 times
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- Lorraine 37L TRC (tracteur de ravitaillement de char = with a fuel tank)_2.jpg (51.99 KiB) Viewed 1384 times