French Airforce

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Sam H.
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French Airforce

#1

Post by Sam H. » 01 Jun 2004, 14:53

What happened to the French airforce following the fall of France? Did France surrender and turn over any remaining aircraft? If so, did the planes later see conflict in any significant amount?

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rcristi2271
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Re: French Airforce

#2

Post by rcristi2271 » 01 Jun 2004, 15:05

Sam H. wrote:What happened to the French airforce following the fall of France? Did France surrender and turn over any remaining aircraft? If so, did the planes later see conflict in any significant amount?
They fought against the Allies in Syria (the scores were quite even) and North Africa. For more detailed info check "French Aces of WW2" published by Osprey

Cheers


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David Lehmann
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#3

Post by David Lehmann » 01 Jun 2004, 15:52

Hello,
On 17 June the French air staff began to order its units to fly to North Africa. The justification put forth by the air staff was that the army was destroyed and could not protect the airfields. An examination of which units were ordered to North Africa and which were left behind reveals much about the motivation behind the evacuation. The units flown to North Africa were those regular air force squadrons with the most modern and effective aircraft--all of the squadrons equipped with the Curtiss 75A ( 10 ), Dewoitine 520 ( 10 ), Amiot 354 ( 8 ), Bloch 174 ( 18 ), Farman 222 ( 4 ), Douglas DB-7 ( 8 ), and Martin 167 ( 10 ), plus most of those with the Lioré et Olivier 451 ( 12 of 18 ). Those left behind included all of the air force reserve units - 47 observation squadrons and 12 fighter squadrons - and all of the units closely connected with the army (the observation squadrons, the 10 assault bomber squadrons, and 7 night fighter squadrons converted to the ground assault role).
Quoted from an article written by Lieutenant Colonel Faris R. Kirkland, USA (Ret).

The more modern aircrafts landed in North Africa ... later in the Vichy Air Force (see operation Exporter in Syria, I have made a thread about it, and operation Torch in North Africa, I have also written a subject about it on the forum) but also in the Free French Air Forces (FAFL = forces aériennes françaises libres) called simply French Air force from 1943 on.

The French Air force after 1940 used many US/UK aircrafts ... grossly for the different types :

1) FAFL (Forces aériennes françaises libres) : 1941-1943

• Fighter/attack
- Bloch 152
- Bloch 155
- Curtiss H-75
- Dewoitine D.520
- Morane Saulnier MS.406 and MS.410
- Potez 631
- Hawker Hurricane and Hurricane II
- Supermarine Spitfire MkV
- Curtiss P-40F and P-40L (November 1942 to 1948)
- Yakovlev Yak-1 and Yak-3 (Normandie Niémen)

• Bomber/attack
- Potez 633
- Lioré et Olivier LeO.451
- Glenn Martin 167F
- Douglas DB-7
- Handley Page Halifax
- Bristol Blenheim Mk II and MkIV
- Douglas Boston III and IV

• Recon and misc
- Beechcraft C45F
- Bloch 174
- Mosquito


2) FAF (Forces aériennes françaises) : 1943-1945

The French air force was composed of :

In UK :
- 4 fighter groups (Alsace -Sqn 341-, Ile-de-France -Sqn 340-, Cigognes -Sqn 329- and Berry -Sqn 345-)
- 3 bomber groups (Lorraine, Tunisie and Guyenne)
- 2 transport groups (Artois and Picardie)

In USSR :
- 1 fighter group (Normandie-Niemen -GC.3-)

Under US command in North Africa, Sicily, Corsica, France etc.
- 9 fighter groups (Nice -Sqn 326-, Corse -Sqn 327-, Provence -Sqn 328-, Roussillon, Champagne, Navarre, Lafayette, Dauphiné, and Ardennes)
- 6 bomber groups (Bretagne, Maroc, Gascogne, Bourgogne, Sénégal and Franche-Comté)
- 1 reconnaissance group (Belfort)
- 1 transport group (Anjou)


• Fighter/attack
- Curtiss P-40F and P-40L
- Supermarine Spitfire Mk V, MkVIII, MkIX, MkXII and MkXIV
- Bell P-39N and P39Q Airacobra
- Yakovlev Yak-3 and Yak-9 (Normandie Niémen)
- Bell P-63C Kingcobra
- Republic P-47D Thunderbolt (from 1944 to the 60's)
- Lockheed P38 (F-4 et F-5)
- Mosquito
- Hawker Tempest
- Hawker Typhoon

• Bomber/attack
- Bristol Blenheim Mk II and MkIV
- Douglas Boston III and IV
- Glenn Martin B-26 Marauder
- Martin A-30 Baltimore
- North American B-25 Mitchell
- Douglas A24 and SBD-5 Dauntless
- Junkers Ju 88A4, A5 and C

• Recon and misc
- Beechcraft C45F
- Douglas C-47 Dakota
- Mosquito
- Lockheed P38 (F-4 et F-5)
- Lockheed Hudson III
- Consolidated PBY-5 Catalina
- Junkers Ju 88A4, A5 and and Ju 188E

3) FAF (Forces aériennes françaises) : 1945-195x

• Fighter/attack
- Mitsubishi A6M2-N Rufe seaplane (1946-1948 in Indochina)
- Nakajima Ki.43 (1945-1946 in Indochina)
- Najkajima Ki.46 (1945-1946 in Indochina)
- Aichi E13A-1 seaplane (1946-1948 in Indochina)
- Supermarine Spitfire MkVIII, MkIX, MkXI and MkXVI
- Supermarine Seafire
- Hawker Tempest
- Mosquito FB.IV, FB.VI and FB.XVI
- Bell P-39N and P39Q Airacobra
- Bell P-63C Kingcobra
- Republic P-47D Thunderbolt
- Lockheed P38 (F-4 et F-5)
- F-51 Mustang
- F6F-5 Hellcat
- Chance-Vought F4U-7 and AU-1 Corsair (from 1953 to 1964)
- Grumman F8F-1 Bearcat (from 1951 to ...)
- NC900 (64 Fw190 A8/F8 have been produced for the FAF in 1946, under the name NC900)

• Bomber/attack
- Glenn Martin B-26
- SB2C Helldiver
- Lockheed P2V-6 and P2V-7 Neptune
- Consolitated PB4Y-2 Privateer
- Douglas SBD-5 Dauntless
- North American B-25 Mitchell

• Recon and misc
- Glenn Martin RB-26 Marauder
- Lockheed P38 (F-4 et F-5)
- Lockheed P2V-6 and P2V-7 Neptune
- Consolitated PB4Y-2 Privateer
- Consolidated PBY-5 Catalina
- Mosquito FB.VI and FB.XVI
- Douglas C-47 Dakota
- Curtiss Commando
- Amiot AAC.1 Toucan (French version of the Junkers Ju-52)
- Morane Saulnier MS.500 (French version of the Fieseler Fi.156)
- SNCASE SE-535 Mistral (French version of the British De Havilland Vampir)

Sorry probably not the answer you expected exactly but I don't know from my own all the fate of the French 1940 Air Force, I will have to make some researches.

Regards,

David

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#4

Post by daveh » 03 Jun 2004, 20:45

I know that the French bombed Gibraltar on 24/9/40 using 60 aircraft and on 25/9/40 with 81 aircraft. These aircraft were based in Morocco though I don't know the units involved. The raids were a reprisal for the attack on Dakar.

During the attack on Syria in June 1941 the French used some 273 aircraft losing 26 in air combat, 16 to AA fire and 45 destroyed on the ground. A further 57 were abandoned and 25 lost in accidents. The British lost 27 aircraft in combat, 4 to AA fire and 3 on the ground.

Details of the day by day action can be found in Dust Clouds in the Middle East by C Shores ISBN 1 898697 37 X

This work also details operations on Madagascar in May 1942

OOB's for the above plus North africa 11/42 and in Indo China can be found on
http://france1940.free.fr/e41index.html#Madagascar

Air Enthusiast 25 has an article on the Franco Thai air war.

hope this helps

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David Lehmann
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#5

Post by David Lehmann » 03 Jun 2004, 21:32

Concerning Syria (operation Exporter 8 June – 11 July 1941) I have these information ;

1) Allied aircrafts :

No. 11 Squadron : Blenheim IV
No. 80 Squadron : Hurricane
No. 3 R.A.A.F. Squadron : Tomahawk
No. 208 Army Co-operation Sq. : Hurricane
X Flight : Gladiator
815 Sq. : Swordfish
No. 84 Squadron : Blenheim, based in Iraq

Present, but not noted as assigned to Exporter :
803 Squadron : Fulmar, based in Palestine
829 Squadron: Swordfish/Albacore, based in Cyprus

Additional air units assigned beginning 17 June after Battleaxe was called off :
No. 45 Squadron : Blenheim
No. 450/260 Composite Sq. : Hurricane
No. 806/33 Composite Sq. : Hurricane

Operated from Egypt against Aleppo and Beirut:
No. 37 Squadron : Wellington
No. 38 Squadron : Wellington
No. 70 Squadron : Wellington
No. 148 Squadron : Wellington
No. 127 Squadron : four Hurricanes and four Gladiators supported the advance of 10th Indian Division from Iraq beginning 30 June.


2) Vichy French Air Force :

- Fighter Squadrons
G.C. III/6 : 25x Dewoitine 520 in Rayack (Lebanon)
G.C. I/7 : 12x Morane 406 in Estabel (Lebanon) and 6x Morane 406 in Alep-Nerab (Syria)

- Bomber Squadrons
G.B. I/39 : 10x Glenn-Martin 167F in Madjaloun (Lebanon) and 2x Glenn-Martin 167F in Rayack (Lebanon)
E.B. 3/39 : 6x Bloch MB.200 in Madjaloun (Lebanon)

- Reconnaissance / Observation Squadrons
G.R. II/39 : 12x Potez 63.11 in Damas-Mezzé (Syria)
G.A.O. 583 : 5x Potez 63.11 in Alep-Nerab (Syria)
E.O. 592 : 6x Potez 25TOE in Rayack (Lebanon)
E.O. 593 : 6x Potez 25TOE in Alep-Nerab (Syria)
E.O. 594 : 6x Potez 25TOE in Damas-Mezzé (Syria)
E.O. 595 : 6x Potez 25TOE in Palmyre (Syria)
E.O. 596 : 4x Potez 25TOE in Deir ez-Zor (Syria)
Note : The strength of E.O.592 to 595 is theoretical rather than actual strength.

- Air fleet :
Esc. 19S : 5x Loire 130 in Tripoli (Lebanon)

TOTAL : 43 fighters, 18 bombers, 40 reconnaissance, 5 seaplane aircrafts = 106 aircrafts


--> Reinforcements :

- Fighters :
G.C. II/3 : 20x Dewoitine 520 in Alep-Nerab (20 June)

- Bombers :
G.B. I/12 : 11x LeO 451 in Alep-Nerab/Qousseir (14 June)
G.B. I/25 : 12x LeO 451 in Alep-Nerab (14 June)
G.B. I/31 : 10x LeO 451 in Qoussier (14 June)

- Transport :
G.T. 1/15 : 9x Farman 222 and 4x Potez 650 (14 June)

- Air fleet :
Fighters : Esc. 1AC : 12x Dewoitine 520 in Alep/Madjaloun (4 July)
Bombers : Esc. 6B/Esc. 7B : 12x Glenn-Martin 167F in Madjaloun (20 June)
Torpedo Bombers : Esc. 1T : 6x Latecoere 298 in Tripoli (Lebanon) (4 July)

TOTAL with reinforcements : 75 fighters, 63 bombers, 40 reconnaissance, 13 transport and 11 seaplane aircrafts = 202 aircrafts.


Different from the 273 aircrafts indicated which is probably the theoretical number and not the actual number of French aircrafts.

Concerning the losses I had information about :
- 41 allied aircrafts
- about 100 aircrafts on the Vichy side (most of them destroyed on the ground)


Sources :
- Mockler, Anthony. OUR ENEMIES THE FRENCH. London: Leo Cooper, 1976
- Buckley, Christopher. FIVE VENTURES. London: HMSO, 1954, 1977.
- Histoire de Guerre n°24 - there is an article from Henri de Wailly : "Syrie 1941 - la guerre censurée" (the censured war, because it is not well studied in France because of the fratricide fights and the first time the Foreign Legion fought against the Foreign Legion).
- MILITARIA Magazine HS n°50 : Opération au Proche-Orient. De l'Irak à la Syrie - 1941. By Yves Buffetaud and Jean Restayn.

http://www.farac.org/php/article.php3?id_article=186

http://france1940.free.fr/vichy/ada_syri.html

http://www.tdg.nu/resources/TOE/OOBs/19 ... r_1941.htm

Regards,

David

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Sam H.
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#6

Post by Sam H. » 03 Jun 2004, 21:34

Interesting ... thanks for posting.

Do you know what if any aircraft may have been surrendered to the Germans following the fall of France?

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David Lehmann
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#7

Post by David Lehmann » 03 Jun 2004, 21:43

All what they could capture ... have a look on my older post concerning French aircrafts used by the Axis :

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=30530

For the moment some photos seem to not appear anymore but should be the case later.

On the German side most of them used for training, transport and patrol.
Other axis countries used them in combat.

Regards,

David

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