TOE of Armored Reconnaissance Battalion in 'Heavy' Armored Divisions

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Floydd
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TOE of Armored Reconnaissance Battalion in 'Heavy' Armored Divisions

Postby Floydd » 13 Jul 2017 03:50

I would appreciate as much detail as possible on the TOE of the Armored Reconnaissance battalion of a heavy divison.

Details of HHC, Recon companies, platoons.

and i have seen March 1, 1942 Recon Battalion TOE(not detailed), There is 'Gun, Antitank, Self-Propelled' and 'Gun, Assault, Self-Propelled'. then in 1944 of Normandy, Assault Gun was 'M8 Scott' and Antitank SP Gun was 'M10' ?

Sorry for bad english. and thank you for your time.

Gary Kennedy
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Re: TOE of Armored Reconnaissance Battalion in 'Heavy' Armored Divisions

Postby Gary Kennedy » 13 Jul 2017 10:30

The Armored Reconnaissance Battaion, circa 1942 to mid 1943

Battalion Headquarters (10 Officers and 62 men);

Command and Administrative Section (8 Officers, 13 men)
Communication Section (1 Officer, 29 men)
3 Armored cars
Battalion Supply Section (11 men)
Personnel Section (1 Officer, 9 men)

Headquarters Company (3 Officers and 81 men);

Command and Reconnaissance Section (1 Officer, 7 men)
Maintenance Section (4 men)
Administrative, Mess & Supply Section (18 men)
Transportation Platoon (1 Officer, 23 men)
Battalion Maintenance Platoon (1 Officer, 29 men)
Armored car

Light Tank Company (5 Officers, 105 men);

Company HQ (1 Officer, 20 men);
2 Light tanks
Administrative, Mess and Supply Section (14 men)
Maintenance Section (1 Officer, 14 men)
Three Platoons, each comprised of 1 Officer, 19 men;
5 Light tanks

Three Reconnaissance Companies (9 Officers, 193 men), each comprised of;

Headquarters Section (2 Officers, 29 men)
2 Armored cars
Administrative, Mess & Supply Section (20 men)
Maintenance Section (1 Officer, 18 men)
Armored car

Three Reconnaissance Platoons, each comprised of;
Armored Car Section (1 Officer, 23 men);
4 Armored cars
Scout Section (1 Officer, 11 men)
Assault Gun Section (8 men)

Total Strength of;
872 all ranks (45 Officers, 827 men)
17 Light tanks
49 Armored cars * substitute equipment , M3A1 scout car

This is the broad personnel breakdown for the March 1942 organisation. The US Armored Divisions that carried over the 1942 'heavy' organisation into 1944 made some equipment adaptations, I've never really seen anything in detail on all the changes they made. The 1942 gun, anti-tank, SP was the 37-mm gun on a 3/4-ton truck, the M6. These weren't exchanged for M10s, which were unique to Tank Destroyer Battalions.

Gary

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Re: TOE of Armored Reconnaissance Battalion in 'Heavy' Armored Divisions

Postby Leo Niehorster » 13 Jul 2017 10:32

This might help you further:
Armored Reconnaissance Battalion — 1 November 1942

(Amended to add: Of course, Gary does it better at 11:30.)

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Floydd
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Re: TOE of Armored Reconnaissance Battalion in 'Heavy' Armored Divisions

Postby Floydd » 13 Jul 2017 16:05

Thank you! it was really helpful. thank you for your time guys!

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Re: TOE of Armored Reconnaissance Battalion in 'Heavy' Armored Divisions

Postby Richard Anderson » 13 Jul 2017 18:38

Leo Niehorster wrote:This might help you further:
Armored Reconnaissance Battalion — 1 November 1942

(Amended to add: Of course, Gary does it better at 11:30.)

--
Leo


In many ways the Armored Reconnaissance Battalion was unique. For one, since it was a battalion, it consisted of companies rather than troops. For another, it was organized originally with transitional equipment such as the Scout Car M3 in place of the Armored Car M8, so even personnel adjustments were accounted for initially (the original TO accounted for six personnel for each "armored car" since it was the Scout Car M3, but that was supposed to change when the 4-man Armored Car M8 became available). What is most difficult is to unravel what was changed from the organization used in North Africa and Sicily by the 1st and 2d AD, the 1st AD in Italy (before it reorganized under the 1943 TO&E in August 1944), and the 2d and 3d AD in Northwest Europe. So a few notes.

Hq. & Hq. Company with Bn. Hq. - originally with 8 M3 SC, 4 M3 HT, 1 M6 37mm GMC, 21 2.5t Truck (2 w/wrecker, 2 w/.50 cal. MG and 2 w. .30 cal. MG), 1 10t wrecker, 4 jeeps (w .50 cal. MG), 10 motorcycles, 14 O (incl attached Med. and Chaplain), 1 WO, 142 EM (incl. attached medical). Small arms were 15 SMG, 104 carbines, 37 pistols.

When the M8 Armored Car was finally issued it replaced four of the M3 SC, while the remaining M3 SC were apparently replaced by M2/M3 HT. The M6 37mm GMC (in the Bn. Hq. Co, Ammunition Mess and Supply Section for AT defense) was discarded, but it appears the gun itself was retained on a ad hoc mounting on one of the M3 HT. The motorcycles apparently were dropped and replaced by additional jeeps (probably four), while the .50 caliber mount on the jeep (despite what the Rat Patrol wanted you to believe) was unable to stand the recoil of the weapon and was replaced by .30 caliber MG, with the .50 moved to other vehicles. I have yet to locate the personnel change orders, but in theory it should have dropped by 8 EM.

A, B, and C Company - originally with 15 M3 SC, 4 M3 HT, 1 M3 HT, 3 T30 75mm HMC, 1 M6 37mm GMC, 6 60mm mortars, 4 2.5t trucks (1 w. .30 cal. MG), 16 jeeps, 5 motorcycles, 9 O, 193 EM. Small arms were 40 SMG, 113 carbines, 49 pistols.

Again, the M8 AC replaced aall the M3 SC and the M6 37mm was discarded, but the gun retained. The T30 75mm HMC was replaced by the M8 75mm HMC (which was never named the "Scott") and the motorcycles were replaced by probably two jeeps. In theory, personnel strength dropped by 30 EM.

D Company - originally with 17 M3 Light Tanks, 2 M3 HT, 1 M2 HT, 1 M6 37mm GMC, 2 2.5t truck (1 w. .30 cal. MG), 2 jeeps, 5 O and 110 EM. Small arms were 23 SMG, 29 carbines, 58 pistols.

The M6 37mm was dropped, but again the gun was likely retained mounted on an M2/M3 HT. Otherwise the organization probably did not change otherwise, except the Light Tank M3 was replaced by the M5. By the end of the war the 2d and 3d AD received the Light Tank M24 to replace some of its M5 (as of 5 May 1944 the 2d had 139 M5 and 33 M24 and the 3d had 87 M5 and 73 M24), but it is unclear how many went to the 82d and 83d Reconnaissance Battalions.

Originally, each M3 SC in the battalion was to have 1 .50 cal. and 2 .30 cal. MG, while each M2/M3 HT would have either 1 .50 or 1 .30 cal. MG, roughly 11 of each, but battalions later tailored the mountings to their tactical requirements...typically, the MG mounted on the 2.5t trucks were moved to the tactical vehicles and each HT usually had 3 MG's mounted - 1 .50 and 1 .30 was typical.

Note there were no M1 Rifles or BAR in the battalion; it was not intended for dismounted action. Later practicalities meant it was so used, but those weapons were never authorized.

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Re: TOE of Armored Reconnaissance Battalion in 'Heavy' Armored Divisions

Postby Dunnigan » 17 Jul 2017 19:01

I never did a compare and contrast myself, but I'd be curious what differences in terms of men and equipment there were between the Armored Reconnaissance Battalions and the "Light" Armored Division Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadrons. On the surface, they appeared the same by 1944-1945.

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Re: TOE of Armored Reconnaissance Battalion in 'Heavy' Armored Divisions

Postby Richard Anderson » 18 Jul 2017 17:55

Dunnigan wrote:I never did a compare and contrast myself, but I'd be curious what differences in terms of men and equipment there were between the Armored Reconnaissance Battalions and the "Light" Armored Division Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadrons. On the surface, they appeared the same by 1944-1945.


The main difference, other than nomenclature, was the Assault Gun Sections were pulled out of the Reconnaissance Companies and formed their own Troop. They also organized a fourth Cavalry Troop. So it was Hq. & Hq. Troop, A, B, C, and D Cavalry Troop, E Troop (Assault Guns), and F Company (Light Tanks).

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Re: TOE of Armored Reconnaissance Battalion in 'Heavy' Armored Divisions

Postby OpanaPointer » 18 Jul 2017 18:25

Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

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Re: TOE of Armored Reconnaissance Battalion in 'Heavy' Armored Divisions

Postby Leo Niehorster » 19 Jul 2017 09:34

OpanaPointer wrote:http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/NHC/NewPDFs/USArmy/US%20Army%20Field%20Manuals/


Although the main site "http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/" appears not to have had any updates since 17 March 2013, it seems from your (as quoted above) post that there have been new bits and pieces added.

I find this site to be highly useful. Could you please give us the lowdown of the current status of HyperWar?

Thank you
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Re: TOE of Armored Reconnaissance Battalion in 'Heavy' Armored Divisions

Postby OpanaPointer » 19 Jul 2017 12:07

Leo Niehorster wrote:
OpanaPointer wrote:http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/NHC/NewPDFs/USArmy/US%20Army%20Field%20Manuals/


Although the main site "http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/" appears not to have had any updates since 17 March 2013, it seems from your (as quoted above) post that there have been new bits and pieces added.

I find this site to be highly useful. Could you please give us the lowdown of the current status of HyperWar?

Thank you
--
Leo

The "What's New" page isn't being kept up because there are currently eleven people making additions. We recommend using Google and adding "Hyperwar" to the search when you're looking for something. I need to add that information to the above-mentioned page to keep people informed. ("doh!" implied 8-) )
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

Gary Kennedy
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Re: TOE of Armored Reconnaissance Battalion in 'Heavy' Armored Divisions

Postby Gary Kennedy » 19 Jul 2017 20:15

Not sure if the formatting will hold up, this is a quick comparison between the two unit types based on their authorised T/Os.

Armored Reconnaissance Battaion (1942); Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron (1943)

Battalion Headquarters (10 Officers and 62 men); Squadron Headquarters (9 Officers and 47 men)

Command and Administrative Section (8 Officers, 13 men); Headquarters Section (8 Officers, 13 men)
Communication Section (1 Officer, 29 men); Communication Section (1 Officer, 28 men);
3 Armored cars; 3 M8 cars
Battalion Supply Section (11 men); no equivalent
Personnel Section (1 Officer, 9 men); Administrative and Personnel Section (6 men)

Headquarters Company (3 Officers and 81 men); Headquarters Troop (3 Officers and 83 men)

Command and Reconnaissance Section (1 Officer, 7 men); Headquarters Section (1 Officer, 2 men)
Maintenance Section (4 men); Maintenance Section (1 Officer, 6 men)
Administrative, Mess & Supply Section (18 men); Administrative, Mess and Supply Section (21 men)
Transportation Platoon (1 Officer, 23 men); Transportation Platoon (1 Officer, 13 men)
Battalion Maintenance Platoon (1 Officer, 29 men); Squadron Maintenance Platoon (33 men);
Armored car; M8 car
no equivalent; Squadron Supply Section (8 men)

Cavalry Assault Gun Troop (5 Officers, 107 men); only in Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron

Headquarters Section (1 Officer, 4 men)
Administrative, Mess & Supply Section (18 men) * reduced by 5 men July 1944
Maintenance Section (9 men)
Four Assault Gun Platoons, each comprised of 1 Officer and 19 men;
2 M8 Howitzer Motor Carriages

Light Tank Company (5 Officers, 105 men); Light Tank Company (5 Officers, 92 men)

Company HQ (1 Officer, 20 men); Company HQ (1 Officer, 10 men);
2 Light tanks; 2 Light tanks
Administrative, Mess and Supply Section (14 men); Administrative, Mess & Supply Section (16 men)
Maintenance Section (1 Officer, 14 men); Maintenance Section (1 Officer, 9 men)
Three Platoons, each comprised of 1 Officer, 19 men; Three Light Tank Platoons, each comprised of 1 Officer, 19 men;
5 Light tanks; 5 Light tanks

Three Reconnaissance Companies (9 Officers, 193 men), each comprised of; Four Cavalry Reconnaissance Troops (5 Officers, 140 men), each comprised of;

Headquarters Section (2 Officers, 29 men); Headquarters Section (2 Officers, 13 men);
2 Armored cars; 2 M8 cars
Administrative, Mess & Supply Section (20 men); Administrative, Mess & Supply Section (31 men)
Maintenance Section (1 Officer, 18 men); Maintenance Section (12 men)
Armored car; M8 car

Three Reconnaissance Platoons, each comprised of; Three Reconnaissance Platoons, each comprised of;
Armored Car Section (1 Officer, 23 men); Armored Car Section (1 Officer, 11 men);
4 Armored cars; 3 M8 cars
Scout Section (1 Officer, 11 men); Scout Section (17 men)
Assault Gun Section (8 men); no equivalent

Total Strength of;
872 all ranks (45 Officers, 827 men); 931 all ranks (42 Officers, 889 men) *reduced by 37 men, July 1944
17 Light tanks; 17 light tanks
49 Armored cars * substitute equipment , M3A1 scout car; 52 M8 armored cars
9 assault guns (SP); 8 howitzer motor carriages

The Armd Recon Bn Scout Sec assumed an officer, Sgt, two Cpl gunners, two mortar gunners, two radio ops and four drivers for four Jeeps, with two 60-mm mortars and two towed 37-mm guns (in lieu of 37-mm guns on pending scout cars). The Cav Recon Sqn Scout Sec had 17 men in six Jeeps, one Sgt, two Cpls, two riflemen, six mortar gunners (for three 60-mm tubes) and six drivers; three Jeeps each had an M1919 on mount.

The changes that 2nd and 3rd Armd Divs made to their T/Os always interest me, but there seems very little definitive on the subject. There is some reference to the continued use of Armd and Armd Inf Regts in active T/O lists for early 1945 in the ETO, and it is possible as I recall to reconcile the figures given using a mix of old and new T/Os for the Armd Inf Regt, but not the Armd Regt. The same document doesn't mention the Armd Recon Bn tables (or the 1942 issues for Armd FA and Engr units) but I'm sure other accounts I've seen a long time ago do support their use.

Gary

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Re: TOE of Armored Reconnaissance Battalion in 'Heavy' Armored Divisions

Postby Dunnigan » 20 Jul 2017 16:45

Richard Anderson wrote:
Dunnigan wrote:I never did a compare and contrast myself, but I'd be curious what differences in terms of men and equipment there were between the Armored Reconnaissance Battalions and the "Light" Armored Division Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadrons. On the surface, they appeared the same by 1944-1945.


The main difference, other than nomenclature, was the Assault Gun Sections were pulled out of the Reconnaissance Companies and formed their own Troop. They also organized a fourth Cavalry Troop. So it was Hq. & Hq. Troop, A, B, C, and D Cavalry Troop, E Troop (Assault Guns), and F Company (Light Tanks).


OK, just to make sure, the "Light" Armored Division Cav Recon Squadrons still had three Cavalry troops (A, B, C) but the independent ones found at Corps level in the Cavalry Groups had four (A, B, C, D), correct?

The Assault Gun Company was still E Troop and Tank as F Troop despite skipping D Cav Troop in the Arm Div version.

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Re: TOE of Armored Reconnaissance Battalion in 'Heavy' Armored Divisions

Postby Gary Kennedy » 20 Jul 2017 17:14

Other way round, four Recn Tps, one Lt Tk Coy and one Aslt Gun Tp in an Armd Div Cav Recn Sqn, lettered A-F respectively, and delete one Recn Tp (and one Aslt Gun Pl) for a non-Div Sqn.

Gary

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Re: TOE of Armored Reconnaissance Battalion in 'Heavy' Armored Divisions

Postby Richard Anderson » 20 Jul 2017 18:00

Dunnigan wrote:OK, just to make sure, the "Light" Armored Division Cav Recon Squadrons still had three Cavalry troops (A, B, C) but the independent ones found at Corps level in the Cavalry Groups had four (A, B, C, D), correct?

The Assault Gun Company was still E Troop and Tank as F Troop despite skipping D Cav Troop in the Arm Div version.


As Gary said, no it was the other way around. Also, the Tank Company, 'F' was a Company, not a Troop. In the U.S. Army, the Cavalry had Squadrons and Troops, but Armor had Battalions and Companies, so the Tank Company in the Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron was still designated a Company. :D

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Re: TOE of Armored Reconnaissance Battalion in 'Heavy' Armored Divisions

Postby Dunnigan » 20 Jul 2017 21:38

Oh, you guys are right, I flipped them in my haste. Arm div's had 4 Cav Troops, independent 3.

And I am aware the tank was a company, not troop. I mistyped as troop instead of company.


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