How many 60mm mortar rounds were man carried?

[Felix C]

How many rounds were carried by the dedicate mortar crewman? Were any more carried by the remainder of the platoon?

I did not find for WW2. found this for a Vietnam team:
• Squad Leader/Gunner (dual duty): 4-6 rounds HE + M19 tube/baseplate, sight, compass, & cleaning gear (rags, solvent, & bore swab).

• Assistant Gunner: 4-6 rounds HE + M19 Bi-Pod.

• 1st Ammo Man: 8-12 rounds mix (HE, WP, Illum.).

• 2nd Ammo Man: 8-12 rounds mix (HE, WP, Illum.).

It seems 36 rounds would be fired off quickly.

Were 81mm only transported by vehicle? They heavy so wonder how far they could be carried over broken terrain.

[Delta Tank]

Felix C.

I don’t know about WWII, but the rest of the company would of carried additional mortar rounds,(and machine gun ammo)how many I don’t know. The problem then is getting the rounds to the mortars. Long time ago when I was stationed at Fort Bragg (XVIIIth Airborne Artillery 74-75) the infantry in the 82d Airborne carried their 81mm Mortars. Did they have vehicles to carry them? Probably, but hey there is no fun in that!!

Mike

[Gary Kennedy]

I haven't seen a copy of FM23-85, which covers the 60-mm mortar and would normally outline the distribution of equipment and ammunition among the Squad members. The May 1943 Weapons (Marine Infantry Battalion) gives this for the 60-mm Mortar Squad for the Marine Rifle Company.

Squad leader - baseplate, sight, spare parts
Gunner - barrel and bipod
Asst gunner - 12 mortar rounds
Two ammunition bearers - 12 mortar rounds (each)

The 'prescribed load' for the 60-mm mortar in two versions of 'Reference Data, the Infantry Regiment' (Nov 1943 and Nov 1945) is shown as 144 rounds of 60-mm amn in the Weapons Platoon of the Rifle Company, so 48 rounds per mortar. There is emphasis in the Rifle Company and Battalion Field Manuals that there was a limited amount of amn carried for the 60-mm mortar.

FM23-90 on the 81-mm mortar outlined a Squad of seven men (one being the driver for the Jeep and normally staying with the vehicle) as carrying either single or double load. Single load was one amn bag for each of the three ammunition bearers, with each bag containing six light or four heavy rounds. In the two man load the gunner and one asst gunner each had to carry a bag as well, and were aided by an amn bearer in carrying the bipod and barrel respectively. The prescribed load for the 81-mm (from the two Reference Data publications noted above) was 63 rounds per 81-mm mortar (given as 54 light, 6 heavy and 3 smoke). The USMC manual gives the same distribution of rounds as in the Army single load. In Parachute and Glider units the 81-mm was carried on a handcart and in Armored Infantry it was mounted in an M4 (or later M21) halftrack. USMC also used handcarts but did have a couple of Jeeps on the Platoon T/O.

Gary

[Felix C]

Thanks Gentlemen. I was reading a 60mm round is about 3lbs+/- and thought one could be carried by an infantryman in their pack to supplement the crews when the latter wore down their ready use and refilled their ammo cases during down time.

[Takao]

Of course, any available riflemen were also shanghaied to carry a round or two to a given location. But you won't find that in the field manuals.

[Delta Tank]

Of course, any available riflemen were also shanghaied to carry a round or two to a given location. But you won't find that in the field manuals.

I was an SGI (instructor) at the Infantry Officers Advance Course for three years, I don’t have my FM 7-10 handy, but we taught that, and everyone knew that, everyone has to carry the extra ammunition for the mortars and the machineguns. The real problem is getting those rounds to the mortars when needed!

I am sure all WWII infantrymen carried extra rounds, whether it was in the manual or not! Thinking is allowed! Experience counts!!

Mike

[Carl Schwamberger]

... The real problem is getting those rounds to the mortars when needed! ...

A Marine mortar man/Vient Nam vet gave me a clue. If it looked like a sustained fire fight the mortar chief would start calling for the extra ammunition & those with a round would start tossing the rounds towards the mortars, one grunt to the next. The mortar ammo men would walk/run/scamper/crawl out & collect the rounds passed towards the mortar position. He also thought most company mortar missions were only 3-4 rounds fired from one 60mm mortar before the fire fight was over. The other two mortars went into action only if the shooting lasted more than a couple minutes. I suspect his experience may not have reflected the US Army in WWII closely.

[Carl Schwamberger]

...I am sure all WWII infantrymen carried extra rounds, whether it was in the manual or not! Thinking is allowed! Experience counts!!

My take is a US Army division/company was well along in the adaptive curve at 30 days of combat experience. In NW Europe 1944-45 around 60 days seems to have been a clear maker in the difference between 'Green' & 'veteran' in that regard. Note this was in the context of the near continual commitment to combat ops, offensive or defensive. In NW Europe. In 1942-1943 most US divisions were not in combat for extended periods, having breaks of weeks or months between battles. That changed the way they absorbed the lessons of combat. One important aspect being they actually had time to train between battles. The near continual commitment of the US Division to the battle zone in NW Europe meant that at the 90 day mark the rifle companies had to contend with a growing number of 'green; replacements who often were poorly trained. Lack of recovery time between battles turned this into a problem. Above the rifle company this was less of a problem & over all the regiment and division could continue refining their experience.

[Carl Schwamberger]

...
Were 81mm only transported by vehicle? They heavy so wonder how far they could be carried over broken terrain.

Slow. In the classic 'The Battle is the Payoff' The author describes a combat engineer company reinforced with mortars attached to a Ranger battalion for a night flanking march against a Axis position in Tunisia. The 15-20 km march over farm trails though some rugged hills saw the heavily loaded engineers & 81mm mortars fall behind the train Ranger company by approximately a hour. Sun was up & the lead Rangers engaged when the Engineers/mortars caught up.

[Felix C]

...
Were 81mm only transported by vehicle? They heavy so wonder how far they could be carried over broken terrain.

Slow. In the classic 'The Battle is the Payoff' The author describes a combat engineer company reinforced with mortars attached to a Ranger battalion for a night flanking march against a Axis position in Tunisia. The 15-20 km march over farm trails though some rugged hills saw the heavily loaded engineers & 81mm mortars fall behind the train Ranger company by approximately a hour. Sun was up & the lead Rangers engaged when the Engineers/mortars caught up.

Thanks and I see Ralph Ingersoll was drafted at age 41!

[Carl Schwamberger]

Im unsure if he was still editor of the New Yorker magazine then. He wrote a number of magazine articles during his service as well as the book. Then he went into a intelligence position and had to cease writing.

[LineDoggie]

...
Were 81mm only transported by vehicle? They heavy so wonder how far they could be carried over broken terrain.

Slow. In the classic 'The Battle is the Payoff' The author describes a combat engineer company reinforced with mortars attached to a Ranger battalion for a night flanking march against a Axis position in Tunisia. The 15-20 km march over farm trails though some rugged hills saw the heavily loaded engineers & 81mm mortars fall behind the train Ranger company by approximately a hour. Sun was up & the lead Rangers engaged when the Engineers/mortars caught up.

Rangers being Light Infantry units didnt usually carry heavy weapons (though the 81 was in their TO&E). Its a LOT easier for them to scoot across hills than Engineers with gear and attached 81's. Typical Rangers wearing a wool OD's and helmet and carrying a garand, rifle belt, canteen, pig sticker, 2 frags and 2 bandoliers

an 81 is 136lbs without basic ammo load, even broken down into a 3 man load for the tube it averages over 40+ lbs per part
Add ammo each HE round depending in type weighed between 7 to 15 lbs

now add your normal soldiers gear including personal weapons and ammo(And Joe always carries more ammo then specified)

[Carl Schwamberger]

In that chapter Ingersoll went into a few details on the load the Rangers & engineers were carrying. My memory is they were not counting on relief soon & the mission required a series of assaults on the defenders flank. Not a raid, so everyone was heavily loaded with ammunition.

[LineDoggie]

In that chapter Ingersoll went into a few details on the load the Rangers & engineers were carrying. My memory is they were not counting on relief soon & the mission required a series of assaults on the defenders flank. Not a raid, so everyone was heavily loaded with ammunition.

Even a Ranger with rifle belt and 4 bandoliers is not humping the same load as a Mortarman with an 81 struggling with a base plate or bipod

[Carl Schwamberger]

Reviewing Ingersolls text its clear the Rangers were carrying more than four bandoliers of ammunition. Describing the march he notes they had packs on. Describing the attacks he describes them using both 60mm mortars and MG. This was the flanking attack on the pass in the Eastern Dorsal on the Sfax road. Supporting the alternating attacks by the 1st ID on the Sfax & Gades roads. Since Ingersoll describes a day long series of assaults by the five Ranger & engineer companies the many mortars and the engineer company makes sense. Its clearly not a raid. Since the route they took was impossible for vehicles they had to have carried the ammo they used for attacking from 06:00 to after 14:00 when the Combat team of 1st Div began breaking down the defense facing west in the pass. Cross checking this with Robert Blacks history of the Rangers in WWII the action is described as a series of infantry assaults into the flank of the Italian defense, part of the Centaro Div. Atkinson description pretty much the same,attack to seize and hold in the flank of the defense. Ingersoll describes the Rangers reaching the center of the pass valley mid afternoon when the main defense gave way under the 1st Div assault.