4 original WW2 Era snapshot photos of US Marines armed with M1 Carbines in the Jungle of Guadalcanal.

[Heartfeltzero]

Came from a Marine who was on Guadalcanal and later Guam.

[LineDoggie]

Just so everyone is aware the M1 Carbine was not on Issue to 1st marine division during the Battle of Guadalcanal(7 August 42-9 February 43). The USMC first requested issue of M1 Carbines in December 1942 and first arrivals to depots started in January 1943. Due to shortages of .30 Carbine ammo, FMF units were not issued the carbine for several months.

Guadalcanal once secured was used to train USMC units for following campaigns

[paulrward]

Hello All ;

Those small carbines might be H&R Reisings, either Model 50, 55, or 60 - all were 45ACP
caliber, some had selective fire, others were just semi auto, all used a stick magazine,
the barrels were of a variety of configurations, and they landed with the Marines on
Guadalcanal on August 7, 1942.

Respectfully

Paul R. Ward

[ROLAND1369]

They are definitely not Reisings. I will tell you from personal experience, the weakest argument for the marines not having carbines is not being on the TOE. If the weapon exists and combat troops want it they will squire it by trade or theft. If anyone on Guadalcanal had carbines, the troops would have acquired them. Also note that the 1st marine division was not the only marine unit on the island. Both the Marine raiders and Marine Parachute Bns were there. They were higher priority units for new equipment than the !st division.

[Olustee64]

Evidence-free propositions starting with an 'if' don't advance the case very much (two 'ifs' in this case). The onus is on those claiming an early appearance of carbines on Guadalcanal to provide a document showing it. Anything else is idle speculation.

[paulrward]

Hello All :

I LOOKED AT THE PHOTOS, and three of the four appear to be Reisings. Mr. Roland1369
is entitled to his own opinion.


From the Much Maligned Wikipedia :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M50_Reising

The U.S. Marines adopted the Reising in 1941 with 4,200 authorized per division
with approximately 500 authorized per each infantry regiment. Most Reisings
were originally issued to Marine officers and NCOs in lieu of a compact and light carbine,
since the newly introduced M1 carbine was not yet being issued to the Marines. Although
the Thompson submachine gun was available, this weapon frequently proved too heavy
and bulky for jungle patrols, and initially it, too, was in short supply.

During World War II, the Reising first saw action on August 7, 1942, exactly eight months
to the day after Pearl Harbor, when 11,000 men from the 1st Marine Division stormed the
beaches of Guadalcanal, in the Solomon Islands. The same date of Guadalcanal's invasion,
the Model 50 and 55 saw action with the 1st Marine Raiders on the small outlying islands
of Tulagi and Tanambogo to the north. Two companies of Marine paratroopers also used
Model 55s, to attack the island of Gavutu, between Tulagi and Tanambogo. Paramarines
and armored crewmen were issued the folding stock M55, and this version included a
notable flaw: its wire-frame stock was poorly designed, crude and flimsy, and had a
tendency to fold while firing. Moreover, other serious shortcomings in both guns were
becoming apparent. The reality was that the Reising was designed as a civilian police
weapon and was not suited to the stresses of harsh battle conditions encountered in the
Solomon Islands—namely, sand, saltwater that easily rusted the commercial blued finish,
and the difficulty in keeping the weapon clean enough to function properly. Tests at
Aberdeen Proving Ground and at Fort Benning, Georgia, had found difficulties in
blindfold reassembly of the Reising, indicating the design was complicated and difficult
to maintain.

The producer, H&R, had not yet mastered mass-production technologies in 1940-1941,
and many of the parts were hand fitted at the factory just like the company did with
their commercial firearms; this lack of parts interchangeability was not a problem for
a civilian security or police firearm, and the Marines had to accept it in order to get the
weapons quickly, but it was very problematic when Reisings were maintained in the field
under combat conditions; the Marines were not told not to mix up the parts during
communal cleaning, as they were used to.

The Reising earned a dismal reputation for reliability in the combat conditions of
Guadalcanal. The M1 carbine eventually became available and was often chosen over
both the Reising and the Thompson in the wet tropical conditions, as the M1928 Thompson's
built-in oiling pads in the receiver were a liability

So, we have now disposed of the comments by Mr. Olustee64 that there were no Reisings on Guadalcanal,
that they were not on the TOE, and that the Marines were not issued them. Whether the Marines got
M1 Carbines in time for the end of the Guadalcanal Campaign I have not been able to determine, but
by the final months, the U.S. Army had essentially moved in to take over the fighting, and THEY definately
had M1 Carbines by the beginning of 1943.

As for the Photos: Here is a JPEG comparing the various models of Reisings to the M1 Carbine - Does anyone
see a resemblance ?

Reising Carbines

And, here are four photos of U.S. Servicemen in VietNam, armed with AK47s.

Tell me, all you experts, were there ANY AK47s on the official TOEs of ANY U.S. Division in VietNam ?

AK47

AK47.jpg (99.02 KiB) Viewed 6630 times

The problem with Historians is that they believe everything they are told by Official Sources, and nothing
that they are told by the people who were actually there.....


Respectfully

Paul R. Ward

[ROLAND1369]

I rejected pic no one because the magazine clearly shows the two reinforcing ribs of a carbine magazine as well the long barrel of an m1 carbine. Numbers 2 and three also have the long barrel typical of an early M 1 carbine. Early Johnson magazines have multiple ribbing or most commonly smooth sided magazines with a different rib on the rear and closely resemble a 20 round Thompson magazine. I stand corrected on number 4 it shows the typical short barrel and long compensator which could make it a model 50 Reising SMG. The upper man is carrying it. The model 55s carried by the Marine parachute Bns did not have one. As for the model 60 semiautomatic carbine these were produced for civilian and paramilitary security guards within the US and I have seen any indication of us military use. There was one Johnson Carbine at the canal but it was a unique experimental model personally loaned by Johnson to the executive officer of the 1 st Marine Para BN and looked nothing like the Model 60. The model 50 and 55s were primarily with the Raider and Parachute BNS.

[ROLAND1369]

I concur with MR ward that particularly in the American Army TOE weapons are considerably less that a bible during Wartime. In keeping with his VN pictures if you look a TOEs for the M3 SMG you would find they are assigned as organioc to armored vehicles only. But That is what I carried for most of my tour in VN. My soldiers in AFghanistan carried shotguns and AK 74s on occasion. Not TOE but common.

[LineDoggie]

Hello All ;

Those small carbines might be H&R Reisings, either Model 50, 55, or 60 - all were 45ACP
caliber, some had selective fire, others were just semi auto, all used a stick magazine,
the barrels were of a variety of configurations, and they landed with the Marines on
Guadalcanal on August 7, 1942.

Respectfully

Paul R. Ward

Reisings dont have as much length of exposed barrel except the Model 60 which was a Semi Auto ONly civilian guard weapon

[LineDoggie]

They are definitely not Reisings. I will tell you from personal experience, the weakest argument for the marines not having carbines is not being on the TOE. If the weapon exists and combat troops want it they will squire it by trade or theft. If anyone on Guadalcanal had carbines, the troops would have acquired them. Also note that the 1st marine division was not the only marine unit on the island. Both the Marine raiders and Marine Parachute Bns were there. They were higher priority units for new equipment than the !st division.

Its not a weak argument at all that 1MARDIV did not have Carbines at the canal

Its simple logistics and timeline, not fantasy

Battle was from August 42- Feb 43

USMC didnt request M1 Carbines until December 42, deliveries didnt happen until January 43, Documented .30 Carbine Ammo Shortages and need to amass the carbines and prep for overseas shipment meant the battle was Over.

The weakness is saying they got enough carbines in January and Immediately sent them to the Canal and gave them out with no training and no Ammo in the pipeline.

Paramarines and Raiders still had to get the weapons through Stateside USMC Logistics channels

[ROLAND1369]

The question not asked nor answered is were there any M 1 Carbines on Guadalcanal at this time. In other words did the Army units bring any. If so by trade or theft the Marines could have obtained them outside of channels. As an example the Para marines were never issued the new C3 plastic explosives by official channels, but traded numbers of Johnson M 1941 light Machine Guns to the 1st Special Service Brigade for the explosive. My point being things dont always come thru official channels in wartime. I do not have any proof a carbine trade occurred but as pointed out similar actions have occurred. For the above reasons I say that the first three pictures are M1 carbines however what proof do we have that the early date is accurate or even on Guadalcanal. Captions on photos are notoriously in accurate. You also have the concept of the American Ordinance Corps for producing pre production models for troop testing prior to adopting mass production. Once again no evidence just alternate explanations.

[LineDoggie]

You also have the concept of the American Ordinance (Ordnance) Corps for producing pre production models for troop testing prior to adopting mass production. Once again no evidence just alternate explanations.

We have the USMC requesting the M1 Carbine in November 24th, 1942
The Battle of Guadalcanal is ongoing in November-December 1942 and ends in February 1943.

Inland delivers first M1 carbines to US Army in August 1942.
Winchester makes first deliveries to US Army in October 1942.
M1 carbine first combat use in North Africa by the US Army in November 1942.
Priority of issue is units slated for the North African Campaign 1AD/2AD/1ID/3ID/9ID/1RGR


USMC requests first M1 carbines in November 24, 1942 (note not M1A1's used by Paramarines). Deliveries are to be to the Philadelphia Navy Yard before December 3rd, 1942, That date was not met, it was January 1943 before the USMC starts accepting deliveries of the M1 Carbine. And they start issuing it to newly raised units with the plan being once they are equipped to start equipping the units already in Active combat. It is acknowledged that ''deliveries are still quite small"

The USMC recommended to the commandant that- ''5. That every effort be made to obtain increased quantities of carbines AND ammunition to expedite the above policy.'' ( that policy being the carbine to replace the pistol, And Submachinegun in the fleet marine forces NEWLY formed units. And that the only further SMG procurement be sufficient M50 Reisings to meet demand no more M55 to be purchased.)

Acknowledged problems with producing .30 Carbine ammo makes for a world wide shortage for 3 quarters of 1942-43. Priority of production was to the units assigned to Operation Torch in North Africa.


So there is no pre production versions being sent to Guadalcanal for troop tests since Ordnance at APG and Ft Benning already preformed such tests.
The M1A1 Carbines first use by USMC was at Bougainville in November 1943, so the M1A1 was not used by the USMC Paramarine units at Guadalcanal.

Explain why the USMC would need to troop test a weapon already adopted and why would you send weapons to combat without an already supplied pipeline of spares and ammunition? it would be stupidly criminal to do so otherwise.

So 1st Marine Division, 2nd Marine Division, the Raiders and Paramarines on Guadalcanal DURING the battle of Guadalcanal did not have the M1 Carbines or M1A1 Carbines on Issue.


25th US Infantry division and the Americal (23rd) Infantry Division also did not receive the M1 Carbine until the campaign was over
this is according to US Army Officer LTC John B. George in his book "Shots fired in Anger" He served ON Guadalcanal and with Merrills Marauders in Burma.

So there were no M1 Carbines to steal or trade for from the Army

[Olustee64]

So, we have now disposed of the comments by Mr. Olustee64 that there were no Reisings on Guadalcanal,
that they were not on the TOE, and that the Marines were not issued them. Whether the Marines got
M1 Carbines in time for the end of the Guadalcanal Campaign I have not been able to determine, but
by the final months, the U.S. Army had essentially moved in to take over the fighting, and THEY definately
had M1 Carbines by the beginning of 1943.

The title of the post refers to M1 Carbines. Your attempt to shift it to Reisings is counter to basic language usage. Also, asking someone to provide evidence is not taking a position on anything, so you answered a question that wasn't asked. But, in the absence of basic reading comprehension skills, it did allow you an opening to prattle on.

So, I repeat, where is the evidence of M1 Carbines on Guadalcanal during the combat phase? Woulda/coulda/shoulda is not evidence. I think I was about 10 when I learned to ask the simple question, " Says who," to some BS claim by a classmate. Show me a primary source.

One reason you "have not been able to determine" if USMC had carbines on Guadalcanal might be because nobody has posted a Wiki article on it. Try doing some "actual research."