Buffalo's in normandy...

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Michael Emrys
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#16

Post by Michael Emrys » 01 May 2006, 04:12

Some confusion here, I think.
Vegemite/jordan wrote:...well for example, the American 10th mountain division served in Italy and crossed quite afew rivers and made it to the south of the battle of the buldge after the germans surrendered in Italy...
The Battle of the Bulge was from December, 1944 to January, 1945. The Germans in Italy did not surrender until May, 1945. The 10th. Mtn. Div. never got anywhere remotely near the Battle of the Bulge.
-would they (if they had any buffalos) have retained them for use in Normandy/Germany?
They never had any that I am aware of. I may be mistaken, but I believe it was British/Allied forces that mainly used them in Italy.

A model, but should give you the idea:
http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/bri ... perez.html

In Italian, but even if you don't read Italian, the pics should give you the idea:
http://www.corazzati.it/scheda_lvt2e4.htm

Michael

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Vegemite/jordan
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#17

Post by Vegemite/jordan » 01 May 2006, 08:05

Auhh! Thanks Rich-Michael! Yeh it doesnt matter if you have information or pictures of them inland or seaborne, aslong as they are in Normandy. I agree that they would quite possibly of been a good idea in the flooded fields until at least they were spotted by an enemy AOP or a bunch of Panthers and so on :? Michael I was reading from the official 10th mountain Dv site (well i think it was official) and i missread it, it said that they meet up with the 44th Dv. coming back south from the battle of the buldge between Italy and Austria, but it did say the german troops in Italy had surrendered but the rest in Europe had not quite yet. Ill post the link in a minute, the comps not liking it for some reason! Another question-I heard there was a Buffalo version which could carry aprox.20 troops and still had 2 mgs at least and some kinda cannon? It sounded pretty dodge to me but maybe you guys know? Oh and one more thing, the 10th were in Italy and they had DUKW's, did they have any buffalos of any version in any number?
Thanks alot guys, very interesting posts :D
Jordan


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Vegemite/jordan
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#18

Post by Vegemite/jordan » 01 May 2006, 08:21

Hey guys heres the link for the 10th MDv.----http://www.10thmtndivassoc.org/chronology.html#chron

Jordan

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Brian Ross
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#19

Post by Brian Ross » 01 May 2006, 08:23

I seem to remember that the Bovington website had pictures of the Buffalos being used on D-Day on their website but I can't seem to find it now. :(

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Michael Emrys
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#20

Post by Michael Emrys » 01 May 2006, 14:12

I have a CD that might have some pictures...if I can ever find some time to look at it. Grrrrrrr...

:mad:

Michael

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#21

Post by jopaerya » 01 May 2006, 22:48

Hi

Here 2 pictures taken in 11-1944 during the battle of Walcheren .

The first at the landing at Westkappele a Buffalo with a 2 cm Polsten gun
the Buffalo's were from the 79th Armoured Division .

The second photo was taken at the marketplace in Middelburg .

The first time Buffalo's in Holland were used was on 08-10-1944 during
Operation Switchback , the landing at Savojaardsplaat in Zeeuws-Vlaanderen .

Photo's = Walcheren 1939-1945

Regards Jos

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Michael Emrys
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#22

Post by Michael Emrys » 02 May 2006, 02:34

Hi Jordan,

I was able to take a look into my CD, which has scans from three books from the Center for Military History US Army, and I found a picture of an Alligator in Italy and two of DUKWs in Normandy. They aren't especially good photos, so if you are planning on building a model, they won't be much help. But they do show that the vehicles were present. These books are devoted to the US Army, so don't show any in British/Commonwealth usage.

The first picture is pretty self-explanatory. Unfortunately, the caption doesn't mention which division is using them. You will notice that the caption says it's maximum capacity is 8,000 lbs., but I have another source that says it was only 6,500 lbs.

It comes from THE WAR AGAINST GERMANY AND ITALY: MEDITERRANEAN AND ADJACENT AREAS.

The second and third pictures of the DUKWs come from THE WAR AGAINST GERMANY: EUROPE AND ADJACENT AREAS.

(I notice that the software here has inverted the order in which I submitted the pictures. The first is on the bottom and the last is on the top. Be advised.)

Michael
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Vegemite/jordan
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#23

Post by Vegemite/jordan » 02 May 2006, 07:07

Thank Jopaerya, Brian and Michael :D This is definatly a breakthrough on this topic! :) Yes so there was indeed a small cannon on them! How common was the 20mm polsten gun? Did the Americans use them or was it a british addition? Im sorry when i started this thread I only knew that buffalos were armoured open topped amphibious vehicles, but otherwise I didnt know much about them. I am going to do a model of one, but I am trying if I can to keep the theme around the 10th Mt.Dv, but I was also very interested if they were in Normandy, so I suppose this is a very useful thread :D Jopaerya, im not aware of Operation Switchback , the landing at Savojaardsplaat in Zeeuws-Vlaanderen-who was in control of these operations-american, british, canadian? Or were they joint operations? Thanks Brian to, ill try find the site, but if you couldnt, i probably cant either :(
Thanks all, very,very interesting :D

Jordan

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Michael Emrys
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#24

Post by Michael Emrys » 02 May 2006, 09:05

Vegemite/jordan wrote:Yes so there was indeed a small cannon on them! How common was the 20mm polsten gun? Did the Americans use them or was it a british addition?
I've been kind of dreading this moment. There were quite a few models of the LVT, with variations on armor, armament, load carried, and so forth. Keep in mind though that most of these would have been used in the Pacific but not in Europe.

My source for this information is Allied Landing Craft of World War Two. This was originally a two-part ONI document that was reprinted by the Naval Institute Press, ©1985. This is a very handy little book and I can't recommend it too strongly for anyone with an interest in this sort of thing.

Just giving very brief descriptions (get the book!):

LVT(1): Capacity: 4,500 lbs. or 20 fully equipped men. Armor: None. Armament: Track rails for one .30 cal. MG.

LVT(2): Capacity: 6,500 lbs. or 24 fully equipped men. Armor: Portable plating (this is given as 10 lb. plating except for the front and sides of the cab, which is 20 lb.). Armament: Track rails for one .30 and one .50 cal. MG.

LVT(3): Capacity: 8,000 lbs. or 24 fully equipped men. Armor: Portable. Armament: One .30 and one .50 Cal. MG.

LVT(4): Everything the same as LVT(2) except this one has a stern ramp.

LVT(A)(1): Capacity: 1,000 lbs. Armor: 0.5" cab sides, turret, and under bow; 0.25" everywhere else. Armament: One 37mm gun with one .30 cal. coax MG in a Stuart turret. Two .30 cal. MGs in ring mounts.

LVT(A)(2): Same as LVT(2) except armored.

LVT(A)(4): Same as LVT(A)(1) except the 37mm Stuart turret has been replaced with an M8 75mm howitzer turret and it only carries a single .50 cal. MG as additional armament. Capacity: 2,000 lbs. ammunition and gear.

It must be kept in mind that field modifications not described in these notes were also undertaken, which is how your Polsen 20mm may have come into the picture. There is reason to believe that changes were also introduced on the production line before the run of any particular model was completed.

Michael

Hans S
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#25

Post by Hans S » 02 May 2006, 12:05

About the different LVT's - this site is rather good.

Cheers

Hans

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#26

Post by jopaerya » 02 May 2006, 18:51

Hi

I think the 2 cm gun Polsten on the Buffalo was a typical
British design and not a American design ( just like the Lee
and Grant tank ), in the 79th Armoured Division there were
also Buffalo's with .50 guns and 2 x .30 .
For the operation on the Scheldt there were 174 Buffaloes
according to the book 79th Armoured Division ( Hobo's Funnies )
from Nigel Duncan . There were some Terrapins, DUKW's and
Weasels used during the Battle of the Scheldt .
For Jordan , there were Canadian , Polisch and Britisch troops
under the command of the First Canadian Army .

Photo = West-Zeeuws-Vlaanderen from A.B.J. Goossens

Regards Jos

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#27

Post by Vegemite/jordan » 03 May 2006, 08:34

Thanks Michael for the good descriptions of all Buffalos, quite an interesting vehicle I think :) When I mentioned the buffalo with a cannon, I forgot to say that when I read it ages ago, the stats on it seemed to match an American 37mm for armor penertration but it didnt say what gun it was, but it did say it was used in Normandy...I cant give you the source it was just a thing I read somewhere ages ago that stuck in my mind from a book shop... :? Ahhh and thank you Hans very good site for comparisons of versions! :D Thanks to Japaerya! Oh and it seems the model I have has a 20mm polsten on it-not good since im trying to do an american version but thanks anyway, its good to have a wide variety in my WW2 vocab :) I would get the book Michael, but being in my last year of highschool is a tad troublesome for money :( But thanks ill keep that on my list of things to get! :D
Keep on coming with the info, any american buffalos you know of, please tell! :D :D
Thanks all!

Jordan

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Michael Emrys
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#28

Post by Michael Emrys » 04 May 2006, 14:20

Hello again Jordan,

A book I ordered, Weapons of the Tankers, by Harry Yeide (who occasionally posts here, BTW), just arrived and when I looked into it, I found a little more information. He has part of a chapter devoted to the Amtracs. Here is some of what he has to say.
Although the vast majority of amtracs served in the Pacific Theater, the European commands received more than five hundred. One company from the 739th. Medium Tank Battalion, Special (Mine Exploder) operated twenty-seven LVTs to ferry infantry across the Roer River in March 1945. The 747th. Tank Battalion (later briefly converted to an amphibious tractor battalion) traded in its tanks for amtracs to ferry the infantry across the Rhine in March 1945; each company was issued seventeen LVT(2)s and eight LVT(4)s. The 752nd. and 755th. Tank Battalions in Italy similarly employed amtracs for the Po River crossings in April 1945.
No mention in the text of what were the units ferried, although one of the photos accompanying the text says that the amtrac shown was probably one belonging to the 747th. and was ferrying troops of the 30th. Inf. Div. across the Rhine.

Pretty slim pickings, but if you were to track down the unit histories of those three tank battalions (which might be onlline), you could probably find more details. Still nothing at this end about British usage, but I know that information has to be out there somewhere.

Michael

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#29

Post by jopaerya » 04 May 2006, 19:02

Here a site about the 79 Armoured Division
please see the shield at the bottom .
http://79armoured.moonfruit.com/
Also nice pictures of Buffaloes .

Regards Jos

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#30

Post by Vegemite/jordan » 05 May 2006, 12:44

Ahhh thank you Michael, jop :D It seems the 79th had not just a small portion of buffalos, but a hell of a lot! Very interesting! Well we definatly know they were used in Normandy now, but how well they tested in combat, not just crossing rivers etc!
P.S, I may not answer for afew days as I am doing alot of study for exams, but keep the info coming so I dont get a break! :lol:
Thanks all!

Jordan

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