Galapagos Islands Air Base in Nov 1941?

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Galapagos Islands Air Base in Nov 1941?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 28 Feb 2009 11:26

Hi David,

I think you are missing the point.

Whether there was an airfield on the Galapagos or not in 1941 is of no great importance outside the original thread, where it has context.

If this nonsense is to continue to exist at all, it should be there.

Cheers,

Sid.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Dec.7'41: A Day That Nobody Bombed Panama !

Post by phylo_roadking » 01 Mar 2009 20:43

Hands up everyone who has read the material David Thompson first posted HERE before opening the Galapagos airfield thread???
For an appraisal of the SEDTA operations, see Foreign Relations of the United States, 1940, vol. 5, pp. 831-850
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... 05&isize=M
and Foreign Relations of the United States, 1941, vol. 7, pp. 263-265, 270-290.
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... 07&isize=M
You MAY in that thread have noticed another post from David -
h) An airfield was under construction on the Galapagos in Mar 1942, but was not ready for use until May 1942. See The Army Air Forces in WWII, vol. 1 (Plans & Early Operations), pp. 298-302:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/I/AAF-I-8.html
HOWEVER...he later posted THIS -
the US used its entry agreement with Ecuador to set up a more or less clandestine air base for PBY patrol planes on the Galapagos (an issue thoughtfully raised by PM), may have merit. That would explain the Japanese secret agent's message of 22 Nov 1941, but I'd like to see more evidence tending to confirm the point.
Since David posted his initial diplomatic correspondance material on SEDTA, I've been chasing down some other material - and there is NOW a major hindrance to the whole base premise of Robert's What-If...that a Japanese seaplane-tender could moor up in the Galapagos, unload its aircraft, and fly them off without being observed...

It NOW appears that there WAS a U.S. military presence in the Galapagos Islands!!! 8O 8O 8O

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Dec.7'41: A Day That Nobody Bombed Panama !

Post by phylo_roadking » 01 Mar 2009 21:08

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi

When David posted this lnk, he recommended material on the subject of the closing down of the SEDTA internal airline service inside Ecuador in favour of panagra; however, if you NOW look at pages 299 to 269...we see some VERY interesting detail on something completely different.

It NOW appears that early September 1941 (the 12th of the month), the U.S. State Dept. asked its legation in Ecuador to reach agreement with the government of Ecaudor that U.S. ships AND AIRCRAFT could enter Neutral Ecuadorian harbours on the mainland AND GALAPAGOS ISLANDS (specifically named) to EITHER buy fuel to extend their patrol radius OR if none was available, for permission from the Ecuadorians that U.S. tenders or tankers could be based there for refueling patrols!!! 8O 8O 8O

This was very swiftly agreed to by Ecuador!!! The diplomatic correspondance record confirms that on September 21st, the legation there reported to Washington that the Ecuadorian Foreign Ministry AND Ministry for National Defense had already agreed to this and had already given the appropriate orders!!!

So...we NOW have USN PBY aircraft patrolling out from NAS Coco Solo in the Canal Zone, and refueling in the galapagos to extend their patrol radius - at least from September 21st onward - and where have we already heard THAT??? Note the date below...
From: Panama (Akiyama)
To: Tokyo
November 22, 1941.
J-19
#321 (Part 4 Of 4 [a])
The anti-air defenses (?) on lock #1, which is now being used, are being improved. (Of course, there are anti-air defenses (?) at lock #3.) The naval defense area, patrolled against possible lightning attacks, extends in the north from Salina Cruz on the Tehuantepec Isthmus to Monepene (on ?) the Gulf of Fonseca. The southern limits extend to the air base on the Galapagos Islands.

5. Present army strength is 47,000; naval, 10,000; air force, 5,000 In addition, it is estimated that there is approximately twice this general total, made up of the families and laborers (excluding Panamanians).


Army 26830 (Japanese) Trans. 12-25-41 (X)
...we've heard it from out friend Akiyama! :D

Now, just in case there should be ANY gainsayers - time for a little (or not-so-little...) corroboration.

Conn&Fairchild, Chap. ten, which has been referred to before...
While the matter of acquiring the land and providing the physical plant had been occupying the attention of the Pacific Development Company, the business of obtaining permission to make use of the islands and the territorial waters of Ecuador had been the subject of independent and direct negotiation between the State and Navy Departments on the one hand and the Ecuadoran Government on the other. More progress was made in this respect than by the development company. Before the company's negotiations reached a standstill, the Navy obtained permission to use the Galapagos Islands as a patrol base. The State Department thereupon began negotiating a formal agreement providing for the establishment of naval facilities and installations on the islands and a base on the mainland as well, in the vicinity of Salinas. Colonel Ridgway of the War Plans Division was informed of these developments by Capt. W. O. Spears, USN, on 16 October, during discussion of an Army staff study recommending that the War Department take active steps to acquire Aircraft Warning Service and landplane bases in the Galapagos. This study, advocating what was for the War Department a reversal of policy, had been drawn up in the War Plans Division and submitted to Captain Spears for comment. Now, informing Colonel Ridgway of the progress made in the negotiations for naval bases, Captain Spears offered the opinion that the Navy Department would be "very reluctant to consent to the diversion of any more materials . . . required by the establishment of additional bases." The naval bases, he thought, would suffice.
That DOES say "the Navy obtained permission to use the Galapagos Islands as a patrol base"..which is obviously the covert agreement, because THEN it goes on to discuss "The State Department thereupon began negotiating a formal agreement providing for the establishment of naval facilities and installations on the islands and a base on the mainland as well, in the vicinity of Salinas."....which is the request that Ecuador approved AFTER the Havana meeting of the Pan-American Security group we know about from P 668-9 and 669 of David's diplomatic correspondance!!!

That seems to cut and dry things; that's a confirmaton from yet ANOTHER direction that the Navy had a "patrol" facility in the Galapgos - and after all, the ONLY "patrolling" they were doing that far out under Department auspices was by PBY!!!

BUT - on top of THAT you have to add...
Colonel Ridgway of the War Plans Division was informed of these developments by Capt. W. O. Spears, USN, on 16 October
In other words, the "Patrol base" was agreed BEFORE 16th October :wink: And THAT puts it right "in the frame" for being the covert refuelling agreement, and the start of the Baltra work in support of it. AND means it was operational for Akiyama to find out about it and report the change to the USN's patrol patterns on November 22nd....

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

So I'm afraid that puts the kibosh on Robert's idea that his attack could be mounted from the Galapagos; the Islands WERE covertly being used as a refueling facility by the USN's PBY flyingboats. I'm afraid you DO have an unfriendly "eye in the sky" above the Chitose...we NOW know it was agreed and set up, that the US Army was told by the US Navy it was operational AND the Japanese intelligence head-of-station knew about it.

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Re: Dec.7'41: A Day That Nobody Bombed Panama !

Post by Sid Guttridge » 02 Mar 2009 15:03

Hi Guys,

I have so far asked Phylo this question ten times and the staff once, but received no reply.

I now throw this open to anyone else:

This is what Phylo wrote on 5 February 14.45:

"You won't find a mention of a NAMED Panagra passenger field on the Galapagos, for instance...but there WAS an air mail strip - for the "service" referred to in two sources....."

All the emphases are Phylo's. He is not simply stating this as a fact, but attempting to hammer it home through artificial emphases.

All I want to know is what these two sources are, because I have looked into this subject long before this thread and found no evidence of any Panagra airfield on the Galapagos.

Once one knows specifically what these proposed sources are, one can begin to address this issue. However, until one knows whether they exist or have any substance, there is no reason to engage with this. However, as it has been stated so definitively, it cannot be ignored, either.

Any assistance in this matter would be most welcome.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
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DISCLAIMER.....

Post by Sid Guttridge » 03 Mar 2009 14:58

DISCLAIMER:

I have never made any contribution to this thread and do not approve of its creation.

Please discount everything attributed to me in all above posts. They are presented out of context and this misrepresents my original purpose in making them.

Cheers,

Sid.

David Thompson
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Re: Galapagos Islands Air Base in Nov 1941?

Post by David Thompson » 03 Mar 2009 19:08

I have finished moving the posts which were entirely or almost entirely devoted to the Galapagos airbase discussion to this thread. Here is a hyperlinked list of all posts (in chronological order) in both threads which refer to the Galapagos Islands, along with their authors (those in this thread are in bold type):

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1284972 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1286378 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1287004 (Robert Rojas)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1287176 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1288223 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1288409 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1288568 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1288601 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1288671 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1288987 (Alaric)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1289005 (LWD)

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1289020 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1289094 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1289105 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1289216 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1289918 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1289987 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1290080 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1290108 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1290238 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1290279 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1290400 (Alaric)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1290422 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1290537 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1291034 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1291151 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1291178 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1291400 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1291408 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1291506 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1291567 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1291656 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1291664 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1291838 (Alaric)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1291883 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1292257 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1293094 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1293514 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1293556 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1293954 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1293962 (phylo_roadking)

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1293977 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1293980 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1294332 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1294404 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1294756 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1295980 (phylo_roadking)

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1296216 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1296720 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1297591 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1297870 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1298102 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1298231 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1299459 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1299553 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1301250 (Sid Guttridge)

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1301271 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1301292 (Andy H)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1301306 (Sid Guttridge)

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1301653 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1301667 (Andy H)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1301671 (Andy H)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1302093 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1302460 (Andy H)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1302466 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1302470 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1303522 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1303978 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1304009 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1304036 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1305025 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1305056 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1305080 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1305081 (David Thompson – warning post)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1305139 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1305146 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1305210 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1305375 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1305388 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1305472 (glenn239)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1305488 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1305685 (David Thompson)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1305688 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1305692 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1305697 (David Thompson)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1305705 (David Thompson)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1305776 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1305806 (Sid Guttridge)

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1305861 (David Thompson)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1305887 (RichTO90)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1305931 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1305947 (David Thompson - announcement that new thread has been started.)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1305973 (robdab)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1305988 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1306310 (Sid Guttridge)

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1306330 (Sid Guttridge protest post)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1306866 (phylo_roadking)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1306876 (phylo_roadking)

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1306892 (David Thompson – post announcing transfers to other thread)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1306897 (phylo_roadking, referring to other thread)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1307163 (David Thompson – post announcing transfer to other thread)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1307158 (Sid Guttridge)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1307434 (Sid Guttridge protest post)

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Dec.7'41: A Day That Nobody Bombed Panama !

Post by phylo_roadking » 04 Mar 2009 00:52

Though at least we got to the point in the end...

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1306897

Right, what other aspects of this WI remain to be dealt with?

robdab
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Re: Dec.7'41: A Day That Nobody Bombed Panama !

Post by robdab » 04 Mar 2009 09:26

phylo, you claim,
Though at least we got to the point in the end...
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1306897
Right, what other aspects of this WI remain to be dealt with?
I disagree and will post with reasons why, shortly.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Galapagos Islands Air Base in Nov 1941?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 Mar 2009 12:48

.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Dec.7'41: A Day That Nobody Bombed Panama !

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 Mar 2009 12:54

Hi Phylo,

You write "Though at least we got to the point in the end..."

Sadly not. I haven't even begun to engage "the point" because you won't answer my very simple questions (and apparently nobody else can either). To repeat their latest (12th) incarnation:

"Hi Guys,

I have so far asked Phylo this question ten times and the staff once, but received no reply.

I now throw this open to anyone else:

This is what Phylo wrote on 5 February 14.45:

"You won't find a mention of a NAMED Panagra passenger field on the Galapagos, for instance...but there WAS an air mail strip - for the "service" referred to in two sources....."

All the emphases are Phylo's. He is not simply stating this as a fact, but attempting to hammer it home through artificial emphases.

All I want to know is what these two sources are, because I have looked into this subject long before this thread and found no evidence of any Panagra airfield on the Galapagos.

Once one knows specifically what these proposed sources are, one can begin to address this issue. However, until one knows whether they exist or have any substance, there is no reason to engage with this. However, as it has been stated so definitively and not modified or withdrawn, it cannot be ignored, either.

Any assistance in this matter would be most welcome."

The value of AHF as a research tools depends on straight answers to such questions. If they are not answered, let alone justified, modified or withdrawn, then the credibility of AHF is damaged. None(?) of us want that, do we?

Cheers,

Sid.

David Thompson
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Re: Galapagos Islands Air Base in Nov 1941?

Post by David Thompson » 05 Mar 2009 18:04

A post from Sid Guttridge, duplicating that at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1307467 , was deleted as redundant by this moderator -- DT.

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Re: Dec.7'41: A Day That Nobody Bombed Panama !

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Jul 2009 12:39

Hi Phylo,

Over to you.

Sid.

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Re: Galapagos Islands Air Base in Nov 1941?

Post by phylo_roadking » 09 Jul 2009 15:08

Jon - can you PLEASE tell me why ALL the posts from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1350180 and onward that DO NOT have any relevence to the Galapagos Airfield issue have been moved here???

They are posts dealing with the USAAF patrolling the Canal ZONE....and Robert's repeated claim about having obtained details on the Canal ZONE defences from NARA...nothing to do with the Galapagos AIRFIELDS issue...

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Re: Galapagos Islands Air Base in Nov 1941?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Oct 2009 11:44

Hi Phylo,

There is no Galapagos airfields issue. All there ever was is your still unsupported assertion that there was already an airfield on the Galapagos before the USA built one.

There only becomes a Galapagos airfields issue after you have produced your claimed sources. As things stand, you have sited sources you have never seen.

This has been my point all along.

In the greater scheme of things, it matters little whether there was, or was not, such an airfield, but it matters a lot that we here on AHF, or any other forum, back up our assertions with verifiable sources when requested. There have to be certain minimum standards of evidence here to sustain the site's credibility.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Dec.7'41: A Day That Nobody Bombed Panama !

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Jan 2010 21:47

Hi Guys,

I have just received further confirmation from the Ecuadoran aviation specialist Guido Chávez A. that there was no airfield on the Galapagos before the US built one on Baltra Island during the war.

He may be contacted at the LAAHS site if anyone wishes to follow this up further.

Cheers,

Sid.

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