Americans fighting Germany before Pearl Harbor

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rob
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Americans fighting Germany before Pearl Harbor

Post by rob » 16 Apr 2002 23:37

Does anyone know how many Americans had volunteered in the British or other allied armies before Pearl Harbor. I'm wondering if many had joined either the British or Canadian military, with passive support from their own government perhaps.

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Post by Logan Hartke » 17 Apr 2002 00:02

The Bismarck would've survived had it not been for Americans. The ship was found by a Catalina (American plane) flown by an American pilot. The American (Ensign Leonard B. "Tuck" Smith) was the one who spotted it and who kept the plane from getting shot down at its most vulnerable time. The Bismarck would've survived had it not been for the Americans.

Image

Another interesting subject is the story of "Eagle Squadron"

Image

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/es.html

Image

Here's a Spitfire re-made in Eagle Squadron colors...
http://www.duxford.org/news/2000/08/

7 Americans flew in the Battle of Britain, 1 died.

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 17 Apr 2002 17:12

Your patrotism can't be faulted, but it's a big jump to say that if the Catalina flown by an American hadn't been spotted, then the Bismarck would have survived. The next word after any Operations Plan is IF, followed by LUCK, plus AND.

Also I thought that the plane that spotted the Bismarck had a diverse crew in terms of nationality, and I havn't read anywhere that the Bismarck was spotted by such & such, just that it was spotted by the plane flown by an American pilot.

From the Shire

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Post by Logan Hartke » 17 Apr 2002 17:29

There's about two pages on it in the book "The Discovery of the Bismarck" by Robert D. Ballard. It is the best source on the Bismarck that I know.

Here's an interesting link on the topic...
http://www.irelandseye.com/aarticles/history/events/worldwar/secret.shtm

Logan Hartke

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tyskaorden
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Americans in the RAF

Post by tyskaorden » 18 Apr 2002 07:01

British Royal Air Force had three so called Eagle Squadrons formed by American Volunteers. With the entry of the US into the War the American personel transfered to the USAAF. The three RAF squadrons then reverted into beeing ordinary British manned units.

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Americans in French service

Post by stumo » 19 Apr 2002 07:21

My father was an ambulance driver in the French army in 1940, part of an organization called the "American Field Service." He escaped from France in 1941 and joined the 1st Brigade France Libre in North Africa (part of 8th Army), serving with them until 1943 when he joined the American Office of Strategic Services. The AFS ambulance corps consisted of several hundred men in 1940. It had also existed in WWI, and Ernest Hemingway was part of an AFS unit in Italy.

My father had hoped to transfer to the French Air Force and fly fighters for them. They required six month's service before they would take a man for air corps training. His six months would have been up in July, 1940...

Just as well as he probably would have been killed in those French planes up against Me109's and Fw190's.

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Aren't you forgetting something...

Post by MVSNConsolegenerale » 24 Apr 2002 05:58

The American Army itself was fighting the Germans before the start of the war! They depth charged a german uboat in defense of a english convoy weeks before the war broke out. The German Nazy was encredibly angery at this, especially when hitler told them to not sink any american ships even when they were being attacked by one. Although history credits Hitler with starting the war against the Americans, by pure action the Americans started it with him. This statement does not imply hitler was not a warlord or whatever, he just knew that getting involved with the states was not a good idea since he wanted the whole war finished by 41 or 42 at the latest.


Just thought you should know if you didn't.

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Re:

Post by Cantankerous » 26 Jul 2020 00:11

Logan Hartke wrote:
17 Apr 2002 00:02
The Bismarck would've survived had it not been for Americans. The ship was found by a Catalina (American plane) flown by an American pilot. The American (Ensign Leonard B. "Tuck" Smith) was the one who spotted it and who kept the plane from getting shot down at its most vulnerable time. The Bismarck would've survived had it not been for the Americans.

Image

Another interesting subject is the story of "Eagle Squadron"

Image

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/es.html

Image

Here's a Spitfire re-made in Eagle Squadron colors...
http://www.duxford.org/news/2000/08/

7 Americans flew in the Battle of Britain, 1 died.

Logan Hartke
I watched the 2001 film Pearl Harbor and one of the male protagonists of the film, Rafe McCawley, took part in the Eagle Squadron fighting Nazi warplanes over the English Channel. Along with Darren, he fought the Japanese at Pearl Harbor and was involved in the Doolittle Raid on Tokyo.

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Re: Re:

Post by Sheldrake » 26 Jul 2020 00:16

Cantankerous wrote:
26 Jul 2020 00:11
I watched the 2001 film Pearl Harbor and one of the male protagonists of the film, Rafe McCawley, took part in the Eagle Squadron fighting Nazi warplanes over the English Channel. Along with Darren, he fought the Japanese at Pearl Harbor and was involved in the Doolittle Raid on Tokyo.
Wah

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Re: Americans fighting Germany before Pearl Harbor

Post by LineDoggie » 26 Jul 2020 01:04

rob wrote:
16 Apr 2002 23:37
Does anyone know how many Americans had volunteered in the British or other allied armies before Pearl Harbor. I'm wondering if many had joined either the British or Canadian military, with passive support from their own government perhaps.
Lewis Millett Deserted US Army Air Forces in 1941, Joined Canadian Army 1941 royal regiment of Canadian artillery. Served as radar operator in AA unit. Joined US Army 1942, Served in North Africa, Sicily, Salerno, Anzio as gunner in 27th FA Bn 1AD. Awarded Silver Star for Gallantry

Court martialed for Desertion fined US$52 dollars, commissioned as 2nd Lt USA after Anzio

Awarded US Medal Of Honor during Korean War for leading a Bayonet charge

Served in 101st Abn as G2, served in Vietnam as Phoenix program advisor
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Re:

Post by pugsville » 26 Jul 2020 02:58

Logan Hartke wrote:
17 Apr 2002 00:02
The Bismarck would've survived had it not been for Americans. The ship was found by a Catalina (American plane) flown by an American pilot. The American (Ensign Leonard B. "Tuck" Smith) was the one who spotted it and who kept the plane from getting shot down at its most vulnerable time. The Bismarck would've survived had it not been for the Americans.

Image

Another interesting subject is the story of "Eagle Squadron"

Image

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/es.html

Image

Here's a Spitfire re-made in Eagle Squadron colors...
http://www.duxford.org/news/2000/08/

7 Americans flew in the Battle of Britain, 1 died.

Logan Hartke
Nope. Would have been a British crew in British aircraft if the US plane and pilot were not there,

Coastal Command would not have been disbanded if there were no American pilots. It would have been much the same. And if the US had not so,d Catalinas, other aircraft like Short Sunderlands would have been used in larger numbers,

The Concept and implementation of long range naval reconnaissance was not solely reliant of US aircraft or pilot. There would have been much the same resources deployed in much the same way,

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Sheldrake
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Re: Re:

Post by Sheldrake » 26 Jul 2020 11:10

pugsville wrote:
26 Jul 2020 02:58
Logan Hartke wrote:
17 Apr 2002 00:02
The Bismarck would've survived had it not been for Americans. The ship was found by a Catalina (American plane) flown by an American pilot. The American (Ensign Leonard B. "Tuck" Smith) was the one who spotted it and who kept the plane from getting shot down at its most vulnerable time. The Bismarck would've survived had it not been for the Americans.

Image

Another interesting subject is the story of "Eagle Squadron"

Image

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/es.html

Image

Here's a Spitfire re-made in Eagle Squadron colors...
http://www.duxford.org/news/2000/08/

7 Americans flew in the Battle of Britain, 1 died.

Logan Hartke
Nope. Would have been a British crew in British aircraft if the US plane and pilot were not there,

Coastal Command would not have been disbanded if there were no American pilots. It would have been much the same. And if the US had not so,d Catalinas, other aircraft like Short Sunderlands would have been used in larger numbers,

The Concept and implementation of long range naval reconnaissance was not solely reliant of US aircraft or pilot. There would have been much the same resources deployed in much the same way,
He has a point. Coastal Command was seriously under resourced. All the best aircraft were allocated to Bomber Command. There weren't that many Sunderland Flying boats and Hudsons and Whitleys lacked the endurance. Coastal Command needed the Catalinas and Liberators. IRRC the Catalina was very new and the American pilot was there to train the Brits how to fly it. He may even have been a civilian employee of the manufacturer.

One of the first Americans killed in British service was William Fiske III who died on 18 August as a pilot of 601 Squadron. In 1941 a plaque and his pilots wings were mounted in the crypt of St Pauls' Cathedral.

Billy Fiske has a couple of other claims to fame. He won gold medals in two winter Olympics for US bobsleigh team. In 1928, aged 16 he was the youngest US male to win a gold medal. In the 1930s he was a banker. Someone tried to interest him in a gold mine in a derelict mining town in Colorado. He thought the mine as doomed, but a great place for skiing, and built the first resort hotel in the town of Aspern. And then chose to join the RAF millionaire's squadron.

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Re: Americans fighting Germany before Pearl Harbor

Post by OpanaPointer » 26 Jul 2020 12:10

A certain Cmdr. Taylor, USN, was seconded to the US Army to help them develop the AIC* on Oahu. He had experience with this as he was an Eagle Squadron Commander before returning the States. (I think he did duty in Scotland.) His testimony is available in the Pearl Harbor Attack Hearings. Link provided on request.


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Re: Americans in French service

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 26 Jul 2020 14:19

stumo wrote:
19 Apr 2002 07:21
...
My father had hoped to transfer to the French Air Force and fly fighters for them. They required six month's service before they would take a man for air corps training. His six months would have been up in July, 1940...

Just as well as he probably would have been killed in those French planes up against Me109's and Fw190's. ...
Which French planes are you referring to? Spring 1940 saw the initiation of large scale replacement of the older models with new. Were the new Dewontines & Hawks that inferior to the Me 109?

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Re: Americans in French service

Post by LineDoggie » 26 Jul 2020 23:23

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
26 Jul 2020 14:19
stumo wrote:
19 Apr 2002 07:21
...
My father had hoped to transfer to the French Air Force and fly fighters for them. They required six month's service before they would take a man for air corps training. His six months would have been up in July, 1940...

Just as well as he probably would have been killed in those French planes up against Me109's and Fw190's. ...
Which French planes are you referring to? Spring 1940 saw the initiation of large scale replacement of the older models with new. Were the new Dewontines & Hawks that inferior to the Me 109?
One American in French Service was Peter Julian Ortiz

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