Help to Id. US artillery

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Re: Help to Id. US artillery

#691

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 22 Apr 2016, 02:36

Well, eleven years ago someone had refinished the place, new paint and herbacious borders all around. Found another example of the M1902 3" in Russiaville Indiana, on a court house lawn

Richard Anderson
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Re: Help to Id. US artillery

#692

Post by Richard Anderson » 22 Apr 2016, 03:40

Carl Schwamberger wrote:Well, eleven years ago someone had refinished the place, new paint and herbacious borders all around. Found another example of the M1902 3" in Russiaville Indiana, on a court house lawn
Not surprised really. A large number were actually built.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell


Carl Schwamberger
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Re: Help to Id. US artillery

#693

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 22 Apr 2016, 03:57

For whatever reason the 4.7" guns turn up more often. Have found a half dozen across Indiana & Illinois.

Sturm78
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Re: Help to Id. US artillery

#694

Post by Sturm78 » 24 Apr 2016, 21:22

Hi all,

I found this 37mm US AA gun in a Youtube video about US Army AA artillery of 1920-30s. Any idea ?? I guess only a prototype....

Sturm78
Attachments
Sin títulogh.jpg
37mm AA gun.jpg

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: Help to Id. US artillery

#695

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 25 Apr 2016, 00:05

There were a number of ongoing tests of prototypes in that era. A through look at the thousands of pages of the Field Artillery Journal usually turns up something, it just takes time. Ability to speed skim text helps. A lot of the information in that magazine was in side bars or other fillersections, so just searching the contents page or index misses a lot of stuff.

The cruciform mount looks similar to one of the mounts for a experimental 3" or 75mm universal gun that was tested in the 1920s. I did read a couple items on that one, including a long article by one of the officers associated with the projected. Hopefully I still have the article indexed if anyone wants the year, vol, author, ect...

ROLAND1369
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Re: Help to Id. US artillery

#696

Post by ROLAND1369 » 25 Apr 2016, 16:07

According to a reference in the Coast Artillery Journal this is a 37 MM M-1 on a carriage T-2. I will attempt to find the reference.

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Re: Help to Id. US artillery

#697

Post by ROLAND1369 » 25 Apr 2016, 16:16

Here is a pic from the reference.
Attachments
Untitled.jpg
37 MM M1, CARRIAGE T 2
Untitled.jpg (18.39 KiB) Viewed 1466 times

Sturm78
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Re: Help to Id. US artillery

#698

Post by Sturm78 » 25 Apr 2016, 21:38

Thank you very much for your help, ROLAND1369

By your image, it seems that more than one gun was manufactured, as the wheels are of different design...
Do you know the date of this design ??

Regards Sturm78

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Re: Help to Id. US artillery

#699

Post by ROLAND1369 » 26 Apr 2016, 02:17

The articles describing them as being tested at Ft Monroe and Aberdeen Ordnance Proving Ground run from 1930 to 1933. There seem to have been at least 4.

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Re: Help to Id. US artillery

#700

Post by Richard Anderson » 26 Apr 2016, 06:58

ROLAND1369 wrote:The articles describing them as being tested at Ft Monroe and Aberdeen Ordnance Proving Ground run from 1930 to 1933. There seem to have been at least 4.
The 37mm M1 AA Gun was based on John Browning's M1925. After his death, Colt continued to develop it and it was accepted as the M1 in May 1927. However, only three were completed until December 1938, as Ordnance went through a series of trials trying to develop a mobile carriage for it. It wasn't until 1939 that a carriage design was standardized and production began.

The reason for the different types of wheels on the carriages was that Ordnance saved money by re-using everything and saved even more by occasionally buying off the shelf commercial production, like truck wheels and tires.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Sturm78
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Re: Help to Id. US artillery

#701

Post by Sturm78 » 26 Apr 2016, 09:32

Richard wrote
The 37mm M1 AA Gun was based on John Browning's M1925. After his death, Colt continued to develop it and it was accepted as the M1 in May 1927. However, only three were completed until December 1938, as Ordnance went through a series of trials trying to develop a mobile carriage for it. It wasn't until 1939 that a carriage design was standardized and production began.

Ummmhhhh...... :? Both the gun as the carriage have very little resemblance with the later 37mm M1 gun of World War II.....

Sturm78

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Re: Help to Id. US artillery

#702

Post by Richard Anderson » 26 Apr 2016, 16:41

Sturm78 wrote:
Richard wrote
The 37mm M1 AA Gun was based on John Browning's M1925. After his death, Colt continued to develop it and it was accepted as the M1 in May 1927. However, only three were completed until December 1938, as Ordnance went through a series of trials trying to develop a mobile carriage for it. It wasn't until 1939 that a carriage design was standardized and production began.

Ummmhhhh...... :? Both the gun as the carriage have very little resemblance with the later 37mm M1 gun of World War II.....

Sturm78
Sorry, I don't follow?
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

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Re: Help to Id. US artillery

#703

Post by ROLAND1369 » 27 Apr 2016, 16:58

What Sturm is saying and he is correct is that the prototype has physically very little in common with the production model of the 37 MM aa gun, the M1a2 gun on M3a1 carriage. Aside from the use of 4 wheels and a 37 mm caliber there is little in common. To start with the T1 used the early 1925 gun which is shorter and with a larger diameter barrel.(see fig 1). In addition the gun is mounted closer to the center of balance on the gun. this combination in the pictures makes the gun resemble a vickers pom pom type which it is not. In addition the stabilization arms are mounted at 45 degrees to the long axis of the carriage and are constructed much larger and more substantial than the production carriage. The Production 37 mm aa on the M3 carriage has the later 37 mm M1a2 gun which has a longer thinner barrel and which is mounted at the extreme rear of the gun using a spring counterbalance under the mount. The M3 mount also used much smaller stabilization arms which are mounted at 90 degrees to the long and short axis of the mount. In addition the wheels are both smaller and are set further apart. In addition the M3 mount has very prominent hydraulic lift cylinders front and rear to raise and lower the carriage. these are not present on the T1. Further there is no resemblance between the T! and M3 sighting system.
Sturm 78 as we discussed in reference to the metamorphosis of the T1 Wilson AA director into the M2 aa director the production model frequently does not resemble the production model. The prototype is the dream of the scientist/engineers and the production model is the result after modification due to financial and production realities as well as the reality of making it functional in a field environment and able to be operated and most important maintained by the average soldier. This lack of resemblance is very common in weapon development.
Attachments
37BROWN1925001tran.jpg
FIG 1 37 MM BROWNING 1925
37mm-aa-gunM3TRANAA.JPG
FIG 2 37 MM M1A2 GUN, M3 CARRIAGE
37mm-aa-gunM3TRANAA.JPG (20.62 KiB) Viewed 1406 times

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Re: Help to Id. US artillery

#704

Post by Richard Anderson » 27 Apr 2016, 17:46

ROLAND1369 wrote:What Sturm is saying and he is correct is that the prototype has physically very little in common with the production model of the 37 MM aa gun, the M1a2 gun on M3a1 carriage. Aside from the use of 4 wheels and a 37 mm caliber there is little in common. To start with the T1 used the early 1925 gun which is shorter and with a larger diameter barrel.(see fig 1).
This seems to be where the confusion is. It may not be generally realized that Browning actually built three 37mm guns in the 1920s in an attemt to meet the Ordnance requirements. Steve Zaloga and I have tried to resolve this, but unfortunately the records are incomplete and contradictory.

"Before he died he 1926, John Browning developed a series of 37mm guns to fulfill a 1920 Ordnance requirement for an automatic cannon suitable for use as an antiaircraft, aircraft, infantry, and tank gun. The first was completed and tested in 1921, the second in 1924, and a third was completed in May and tested in June 1925. Confusingly, the first two have both been identified as the “M1924”, but they were slightly different guns, the earlier designed with a muzzle velocity of 1,350 F.P.S. and the other 2,000 F.P.S. The third gun was designed for a muzzle velocity of 3,000 F.P.S. and is sometimes identified as the “M1925” gun. Even more confusingly, in FY 1926 (i.e. after 30 June 1926) Ordnance instituted the 'T' number system for Test items and various earlier test items considered legitimate "pilot" models were given T numbers retroactively. However, they weren't assigned systematically – or chronologically – and so the last built of the three Browning guns, the 3,057 F.P.S. “M1925” became the T2, the first 1,350 F.P.S. “M1924” became the T3, while the second 2,000 F.P.S. “M1924” probably never received a T number at all.

Despite the typical Browning qualities of simplicity and reliability, the guns were developed in a period of growing fiscal austerity, which restricted further work on them. It was found that the high muzzle velocity of the T2 caused excessive wear at the muzzle and overall the barrel was considered weak. The Colt Firearms Company continued work on the T2 after Browning’s death and in May 1927 it was accepted as the 37mm Antiaircraft Gun M1, but only three guns were completed by December 1938. Similarly, desultory work continued on the 37mm T3. In December 1939, the final development type, the T9, was standardized as the 37mm Aircraft Cannon M4. However, a purpose-designed tank gun was never developed from Browning’s work."

It appears the photo you put up is of the "M1924" (T3), while the later "Colt" 37mm M1 Gun was derived from the "M1925" (T2). There is a photo of Browning with another gun at APG, which is more clearly the ancestor of the 37mm M1 Gun in appearance.
browning-demonstrates-cannon.jpg
The problem with all this is that the caption for the above photo says it was taken in 1921, which would make it the T3 Gun, except then it bares no visual relationship to the 37mm Aircraft Cannon M4, which we know it was the ancestor of.

I suspect that somehow the date captions of the photos got confused or that the two photos were both taken at the 1925 APG tests. Unfortunately though so far the documentary evidence of the test hasn't been found (there is no finding aide for RG156, which consists of hundreds of boxes).
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Sturm78
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Re: Help to Id. US artillery

#705

Post by Sturm78 » 30 Apr 2016, 12:18

Thanks for your help, Richard and ROLAND1369... :wink:

Here, another image (from Ebay) of a very rare (for me) US Army AA gun. According to photocaption, 26mm caliber weapon... 8O :?
Any idea ???

Sturm78
Attachments
ARMY 26mm AA Gun Black n White Photo Military War Watertown Arsenal Artillery.jpg

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