US prewar politics

[Andy H]

Hunkering down to the point of cutting out all international trade seems to me to have gone past the point of rational. I can see wanting to avoid war but ....

Hi

Given that the US had its own International empire dotted around the Pacific, one wonders to what degree those proponents had actually thought out this proposal. From here it just looks like utopian ideals, based outside the reality of the times

Regards

Andy H

[OpanaPointer]

Hi

Given that the US had its own International empire dotted around the Pacific, one wonders to what degree those proponents had actually thought out this proposal. From here it just looks like utopian ideals, based outside the reality of the times

Regards

Andy H

Some didn't know (apparently) about the overseas possessions, some knew and didn't care, some were willing to give them up to avoid fighting. They were all over the map on "empire".

[Andy H]

Thanks for the response.

I've heard some people argue that the difference between appeasement and isolationism, was the breadth of the Atlantic from London to Washington!

Was that train of thought even present in the US prior to the outbreak of war?

Regards

Andy H

[OpanaPointer]

Thanks for the response.

I've heard some people argue that the difference between appeasement and isolationism, was the breadth of the Atlantic from London to Washington!

Was that train of thought even present in the US prior to the outbreak of war?

Regards

Andy H

You could find anything in the Firsters. Quakers to "go it alone" capitalists and protectionists. Appeasement had it proponents here certainly. The German-American Bund may have been supporting that, but they didn't do it overtly that I know of.

[Andy H]

Thanks for the response.

I've heard some people argue that the difference between appeasement and isolationism, was the breadth of the Atlantic from London to Washington!

Was that train of thought even present in the US prior to the outbreak of war?

Regards

Andy H

You could find anything in the Firsters. Quakers to "go it alone" capitalists and protectionists. Appeasement had it proponents here certainly. The German-American Bund may have been supporting that, but they didn't do it overtly that I know of.

Hi OP

Did the US Government and the wider US popn, see a difference between appeasement and isolationism, or was it twp roads to the same crossroads?

Regards

Andy H

[OpanaPointer]

Hi OP

Did the US Government and the wider US popn, see a difference between appeasement and isolationism, or was it twp roads to the same crossroads?

Regards

Andy H

The anti-appeasement elements certainly tried to make the connection between isolationism and appeasement. I don't think it was all that hard to do. Have you looked at the speeches on my site? http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/index.html

[Andy H]

Hi OP

Did the US Government and the wider US popn, see a difference between appeasement and isolationism, or was it twp roads to the same crossroads?

Regards

Andy H

The anti-appeasement elements certainly tried to make the connection between isolationism and appeasement. I don't think it was all that hard to do. Have you looked at the speeches on my site? http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/index.html

Hi

Though a regular user of Hyperwar, I have yet to look in detail at the documents listed in your stated link.
Why is there but 24hours in a day when history is made every second of every day.

Regards

Andy H

[OpanaPointer]

Hi

Though a regular user of Hyperwar, I have yet to look in detail at the documents listed in your stated link.
Why is there but 24hours in a day when history is made every second of every day.

Regards

Andy H

That's on the political site, "World War II Resources", not Hyperwar. We're talking about a merge, but Ibiblio gets shaky thinking about the hit rate.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Did the US Government and the wider US popn, see a difference between appeasement and isolationism, or was it twp roads to the same crossroads?

Regards

Andy H

More like many roads.

"Isolationits" is frequently the label applied to the broad mass of those opposed to involvement in a European war. But, when you examine the folks who undrewrote the organizations pushing isolation or politicing against support for Britian you frequently find gets like Henry Ford who are heavily invested in Germany or other Facist nations, or Davis of 'Davis Oil' or DuPont who fronted from German investment in the US and Americas. Do you call those people Isolationists, Anti War, or what?

The role of the left in anti war & anti British, amoung other antis, is a bit understudied as well. As Opana Pointer remarked earlier the abrupt change of attitude of the US left in mid 1941 was 'remarkable' But, like the fading Progressives in the 1920s the and the conservatives in the 1920s the left had its role in the shape of US forigen policy and attitude towards military prepardness.

[South]

Good morning Carl,

Re the Philippines independence discussions and "screaming and wailing" (of 20 July);

The screaming and wailing was heavy - and there was more than just verbal stuff.

There was a common denominator to both Cuba and the Philippines. Starting with Cuba;

Sugar and tobacco were Cuba's chief crops. Much was exported to the US mainland. The Dingley tariff rates curtailed export sales to the US. General Wood and Secretary of War Root requested President Theodore Roosevelt to seek reduction of the tariff rates to help the economic development of the island.

Teddy Roosevelt went before Congress but the US beet sugar interests and the cane sugar interests (especially in Louisiana) said a Cuban tariff reduction would ruin their businesses. It wasn't until 1903 that Congress reluctantly agreed to a Dingley 20% reduction for Cuban ag products. There were, of course, tradeoffs.

All US political sides agreed that the question of Philippine independence should be delayed until after the Great War ended with peace. By the time of the peace treaty, the Democrats lost control of Congress and in 1920 lost the Presidency to Republican President Harding.

To abbreviate:

In the session of Congress in 1930 the proposal to grant the Philippines independence was strongly supported by the Congressional delegations from the western states because of the competition of Philippine imports - especially sugar.


Warm regards,

Bob

[Carl Schwamberger]

The US sugar industry, right up their with United Fruit. Following the money is so often revealing I often feel bank records are more important historical documents that State Department correspondence.

"n the session of Congress in 1930 the proposal to grant the Philippines independence was strongly supported by the Congressional delegations from the western states because of the competition of Philippine imports - especially sugar."

I wonder where Gen. MacAurthur's family interests stood in this business?

[OpanaPointer]

The US sugar industry, right up their with United Fruit. Following the money is so often revealing I often feel bank records are more important historical documents that State Department correspondence.

Following the great traditions of the East India Company.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Post WWI the Marsh Plan for the US Army was rejected & the Army reduced to a tiny training cadre. Conversely the USN remained a relatively robust organization. How is it the US retained a world class fleet in the face of Isolationist and fiscaly conservative policies of the 1920s & 30s? I can see a degree of 'make work' pork barrel political incentives for the shipbuilding ports, but there must have been more to it?

[OpanaPointer]

Post WWI the Marsh Plan for the US Army was rejected & the Army reduced to a tiny training cadre. Conversely the USN remained a relatively robust organization. How is it the US retained a world class fleet in the face of Isolationist and fiscaly conservative policies of the 1920s & 30s? I can see a degree of 'make work' pork barrel political incentives for the shipbuilding ports, but there must have been more to it?

The Influence of Seapower on History.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Its been a very long time since I read that. Is there a strong argument the ideas Mahan discussed were that strong they could overcome fiscal conservatism & politcal isolationism?

In the later 19th Century there was for a few decades a suposedly less expensive coastal defense navy policy. Jeffersons 'militia navy' was along the same line. Were alternatives to a large blue water navy so discredited they had no traction in the 1920s? The Big Fleet seems to be the sole offering in that era, with the debate being over the details of composition. Or was there a viable alternate proposal for a significantly reduced navy?

The Army Air Corps argued for a alternative, but my take is they were dismissed as in or near the lunatic fringe. That is they did not get the money.