Killed Canadian or US Bomber Pilot - which Archive?

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Oberhessin
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Killed Canadian or US Bomber Pilot - which Archive?

Post by Oberhessin » 03 Sep 2014 10:07

Dear Forum members, i'd like to ask for your help. If this posting is in the wrong place please but it elsewhere.

I am seeking information on a killed Canadian or US-american Bomber Pilot. He was involved in an air-raid on Munich or Pullach/Höllriegelskreuth on the 19th of July 1944. His plane was shot. He survived in the woods around Pullach, I guess injured, and was killed by the Ortsgruppenleiter of Pullach and two comrades. He was buried in the cemetary but the local female nationalsocialists complained about this and his corpse was put somewhere out of the cemetary (or burned or???).

How can I get the information on the name of this pilot?
The Ortsgruppenleiter was killed by the US-american troops when they marched insid Pullach in the first or secon day of May 1945. The other two hit themselves and were never tried for this crime.

histan
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Re: Killed Canadian or US Bomber Pilot - which Archive?

Post by histan » 03 Sep 2014 18:21

If he was a member of the RCAF then his details will be found in the members area of the Air of Authority website:

www.rafweb.org/

You have to be a member to access the comprehensive database of RAF and RCAF casualties.

A possible source, if he was a member of the USAAF, is the Missing Aircrew Reports database on the Fold3 website

Regards

John

Oberhessin
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Re: Killed Canadian or US Bomber Pilot - which Archive?

Post by Oberhessin » 04 Sep 2014 11:06

Thanks a lot!
I have been registered in the first one now but I have to find my way there...

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Simon H
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Re: Killed Canadian or US Bomber Pilot - which Archive?

Post by Simon H » 04 Sep 2014 13:59

Just a quick check of one American Bomber Group reveals 7 aircraft lost on this day in the Munich area. Very difficult to see how a MACR would help as it could not be verified with the fate of the airman on the ground by any Allied witnesses. Finding local witnesses after so long would be difficult but might be possible. Such an event must have been talked about.

The Americans who liberated Pullach and beat and shot the Ortsgruppenleiter may well have mentioned this in an After Action Report. You could try to track that down for clues.

Good luck trying to find out.

Regards,
Simon
WW2 Battlefield Relics: German Erkennungsmarken Identification.

histan
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Re: Killed Canadian or US Bomber Pilot - which Archive?

Post by histan » 04 Sep 2014 15:38

Hi Simon

In a case like this you have to bootstrap your way in and I am suggesting that the MACRs might be a way in. From knowing that an American aircraft was lost on a particular day at a particular location you can use the MACRs to identify possible tail numbers, units and pilot names. It might be possible to get a long list of possibilities, you have identified seven. These can be used to search other databases or records to identify which pilots became pow and rule those out. Gradually, you reduce the size of the list.

Regards

John

Oberhessin
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Re: Killed Canadian or US Bomber Pilot - which Archive?

Post by Oberhessin » 04 Sep 2014 19:36

Gentlemen, would you help me with the MACR? What does this mean?

In this special Pullach case you have the witnesses or bystanders in a little village. The Ortsgruppenleiter who was hated for his rigid ways was cilled immediately after the fall of pullach on th 30th April/1st of may. A lot of the local people remember the US soldiers killing him around the cemetary. His wife immediatley commited suicide. The other two person involved were not at the place at this time. One lived in the Ludwigshafen area the other one was a guard at the concentration camp at Kaufering.
If you ask the local people they tell you only of the killing of the Ortsgruppenleiter. If you ask for the two others nobody knows.
And nobody knows or wants to know or wants to talk with me about this allied pilot or airman.
Its quite difficult.

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Simon H
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Re: Killed Canadian or US Bomber Pilot - which Archive?

Post by Simon H » 05 Sep 2014 08:42

Found this with a quick search, you may want to contact them at the address at the bottom. Good luck!

These are 460th Bomb Group losses from 19th July 1944. The target was the Allach Engine Factory at Munich:

Lt. William C. Weldon 761st Squadron. A/C #41-28930 Aircraft damagerd by flak. There is soime question about where the plane crashed. A German report that is part of MACR # 6913 lists the site as Aigen im Enstal, but we know this is not correct. Aigen im Enstal is located too far east, south of Linz near Leizen. Members of the crew say they bailed out southwest of Innsbruck. This makes sense as it falls in a line from Munich where two other planes crashed.


Lt. Wilmot K. Larr 761st Squadron MACR # 6916 A/C # 42-51140 They were hit by flak and the aircraft crashed 500 meters west of Faistenhair, Germany Larrr and radio operator Arthur J. Bolduc were KIA. The other crew members became POWs.

Lt. Herbert Rubin 760th Squadron MACR # 7055 A/C # 42-52401 Kajun Kate was hit by flak, crashing near Grafenaschau, Germany. All of the crew bailed out except the navigator Amos R. Allen. His body was recovered from the plane.

Joseph M. Semradek. 763rd Squadron MACR # 6952 flying Big Time Operator, A/C #42-94923. Hit by flak they crashed at Munich. Four members of the crew were killed, the others became POWs.

Lt. Charles A. Remlinger. 760th Squadron MACR # 6918. A/C # 42-94968. They had flak damage, but were able to get to near Fumi, Yugoslavia where the crew bailed out.

Lt. William D. Rhodaburger. 763rd Squadron. MACR # 6917. Flying JUnior, they were hit by flak, crashing near Bernried, Germany. Eight of the eleven crew members were killed.

Sparky and Betty Bohnstedt 460th Bomb Group Historians.
email: dlbjb460@aol.com
WW2 Battlefield Relics: German Erkennungsmarken Identification.

Oberhessin
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Re: Killed Canadian or US Bomber Pilot - which Archive?

Post by Oberhessin » 06 Dec 2014 09:59

Update, but the riddle is not solved.
As far as the local archice says, the mans name was James Grun, a canadian with the US Airforce. Went down with his parachute and killed. Exhumated in June 1946.
No MACR, no plane fits to the person.
Has somebody an idea how to go on?

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Re: Killed Canadian or US Bomber Pilot - which Archive?

Post by Rob Stuart » 06 Dec 2014 19:46

Oberhessin wrote:Update, but the riddle is not solved.
As far as the local archice says, the mans name was James Grun, a canadian with the US Airforce. Went down with his parachute and killed. Exhumated in June 1946.
No MACR, no plane fits to the person.
Has somebody an idea how to go on?
It was very, very unusual for Canadians to serve as members of the US forces in WW2, since Canada entered the war more than two years before the US did. The Commonwealth War Graves Commission website lists no one named Grun (or Grune), so if this surname is correct we can be confident that he was not serving with the RCAF or RAF, which in turn means that he would have been wearing an American uniform, so what made them think he was Canadian?
Last edited by Rob Stuart on 07 Dec 2014 02:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Killed Canadian or US Bomber Pilot - which Archive?

Post by StefanSiverud » 07 Dec 2014 01:56

Can I suggest James M. Greene, ASN 15334568?
http://www.abmc.gov/search-abmc-burials ... WWII_43789
http://www.kygenweb.net//history/lorraine/greene.jpg
If so, the plane was B-24J 42-99763 "Flying JUnior" and the relevant MACR is 6917.
Shot down on a mission against the Allach Engine Factory, Munich, Germany, loss location listed as Forstenreid in several databases.

This might also interest you: http://forum.armyairforces.com/losses-o ... 92953.aspx

Hope it helps!

Oberhessin
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Re: Killed Canadian or US Bomber Pilot - which Archive?

Post by Oberhessin » 07 Dec 2014 07:30

Gentlemen, Chapeau!

It is said that he was canadian in all the few sources I had: the local priest, the people vom Pullach talking about it, although there were some who said US. As for "Grun" we thought of a mistake very early, but were to start...?
The information could fit because there was a second Aircraft men going down in this area, but he survived wounded and was treated in the nearby hospital in Solln. His name was Travers.

Some time later, checking the MACR: It must be Greene!
THANK YOU!

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Re: Killed Canadian or US Bomber Pilot - which Archive?

Post by StefanSiverud » 08 Dec 2014 00:15

You're very welcome!
Even if it's a sad story, it's good to know it can be told using what's probably the correct name of the airman.

Oberhessin
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Re: Killed Canadian or US Bomber Pilot - which Archive?

Post by Oberhessin » 08 Dec 2014 08:17

All is still not prooved. The Bohnstedts doubt that it is Greene because it is said they should have buried all the corpses in Neuried. They were partly so destroyed or without identification tags. 11 man on the "Flying junior", only three survived, on one no information on the whereabouts, the fifth one first captured 8 hours after the plane went down south of Munich about 30km apart in the Bavarian alps, later described as KIA.

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Re: Killed Canadian or US Bomber Pilot - which Archive?

Post by StefanSiverud » 11 Dec 2014 18:46

I agree that it's not confirmed, but it's probably the closest match we'll get unless someone who was there at the time got the name.

As for the body not being in a Neuried cemetery, all American dead were removed from Germany and interred in permanent American cemeteries between 1947 and 1950 or 51 (I forget which), unless the family wished the original grave should be kept. No permanent American cemeteries were placed in Germany.
While there was no way of DNA testing to be completely certain, there were plenty of other ways to identify remains. This may interest you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mmC1WQKjC4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5pHyWc6bTc

Oberhessin
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Re: Killed Canadian or US Bomber Pilot - which Archive?

Post by Oberhessin » 17 Dec 2014 19:31

Thanks again!
I got an adress in the States where I could obtain their personal casualtiy report, but this adress was only for the Army, not for the Airforce I got to know this morning.

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