TM 9-1907 doc

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Contender
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TM 9-1907 doc

Post by Contender » 24 Jan 2019 21:26

I am looking for 1944 version of TM 9-1907, Ballistic Data, Performance of Ammunition document :
Image
Any help is appreciated.

Gary Kennedy
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Re: TM 9-1907 doc

Post by Gary Kennedy » 25 Jan 2019 02:03

There doesn't appear to be a PDF version available, certainly no trace at the CGSC digital library or archive.org. A few original copies are for sale at varying prices. The only other listing I could see is here;

http://www.military-info.com/MPHOTO/P110.htm

Copies not originals, $31.00 for the Sep44 issue and $30.00 for the Jul48 one.

I've not dealt with them so I can't offer a testimonial, they only look to deal with US based customers (shame as they have a few titles I find interesting).

Maybe worth an email if you can make do with a copy rather than original.

Gary

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Re: TM 9-1907 doc

Post by Contender » 26 Jan 2019 02:46

TY for the response m8, I have been looking for a website that does not charge an arm and a leg this website has it at a fair price but the site itself looks a little shady to me and the lack of electronic payment (paypal or similar) is not ideal. Unfortunately I saw the 1944 variant on Ebay some months ago for 20 USD but I was too late to pick it up and I am still kicking myself because of that.

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Re: TM 9-1907 doc

Post by OpanaPointer » 26 Jan 2019 03:15

Searched Hyperwar?
Come visit our sites:
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Gary Kennedy
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Re: TM 9-1907 doc

Post by Gary Kennedy » 26 Jan 2019 19:47

I couldn't see it on the Hyperwar list;

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/TM/index.html

Might be worth an email here;

http://bulletpicker.com/

I couldn't see it on the list there either, but he might know where to ask

http://bulletpicker.com/technical-manuals.html

Gary

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Re: TM 9-1907 doc

Post by Thoddy » 13 Oct 2020 08:57

TM 9-1907
Handbook of Ballistic and Engineering Data For Ammunition Volume 1 b 20 mm - 75 mm
DTIC number: AD-A9553568 > https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a955368.pdf
https://archive.org/details/HandbookOfB ... nitionVol1


Handbook of Ballistic and Engineering Data For Ammunition Volume 2 76 mm - 120 mm
DTIC number: AD-A9553569 > https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a955369.pdf
https://archive.org/details/HandbookOfB ... nitionVol2

Handbook of Ballistic and Engineering Data For Ammunition Volume 3 120 mm - 240 mm
DTIC number: AD-A9553570 > https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a955370.pdf


----
As far as i can see the comparative performance of german Pzgr 39/43 at all calibers appears significantly better then the american Standard steel armor piercing projectiles despite about same weights

the function of penetration appears konvex over a wider speed range for german projectiles and became konkave over 1100 m/s
it shows a better energy dependend Penetration
the pentration chart of 7,5 cm Pzgr 39/43 become convex at velocities of about 1200 m/s (according "Die Fertigung deutscher Panzergeschosse")

sample comparative performance of 8,8 cm Pzgr 39/43 vs M82 APC Shell
unfortunately the american document did not provide a chart for the M77 projectile wich is the uncapped shot Version of the M82
Vergleich 8-8 cm Pzgr 39 43 vs 90 mm M82 V2.jpg
the red points on the american chart shows performance of the achtacht shell at 30 degrees obliquity

the functions of the american projectiles already became konkave at the best case around 600 m/s
This seem to indicate for higher deformations of these projectiles during the penetration process due to insufficient projectile strenghts.

Despite the differences in penetration against thicker plates at lower velocities it seems to me that the pentration Charts for 0° 30° and 45° for 7,5 cm projectiles emerge from the same general charts at lower velocities say ~500 m/s almost identical

-until 600 m/s the differences are quite small

-and after this velocity, the divergence becomes marked especially at lower obliquities.


@critical mass
the same inferiority can be seen if comparing 7,5 cm Pzgr 39/43 and 7,5 cm M62
one can deduce from this the so called "scaling effect" isnt that great as US Research may indicate
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Re: TM 9-1907 doc

Post by critical mass » 15 Oct 2020 11:18

Yes. The M61 and M62 APCBC-projectiles deformed and broke up early compared with the 75mm Pzgr.39. The main problem was the heat treatment, which in case of the US projectiles copied the sheath hardening treatment known from major calibre naval projectiles scaled down for anti tank projectiles.
Unfortunately, in calibres below 100mm, the sheath hardening pattern was later forund to be vastly inferior to normal decremental hardening pattern because it allowed a soft spot under the nose in proximity to the surface. In major calibre APC, there still was enoigh metal in front of this softer zone, so the projectile nose could stay rigid. But one can only scale dimensions down, not the atoms, too. Also the sweet spot in hardness (Rc 67) was unknown by then.
Thoddy, You have BAMA RH8-1319, You will find all details concerning the research exploring these problems therein.

Post ww2 US trials on US RHA confirmed the superiority of the Pzgr39 (see attachment), in which the 75mm M61 failed to defeat 5.1" RHA at 29-30°, regardless of velocity (it rebound at 2676fps and shattered at 2966fps and more), while the 75mm Pzgr.39 could defeat this plate at 44-45°, often intact.

The M62 fared no better in comparative trials post war. However, the US also had the Navy 3" Mk29 APCBC, and this projectile did not shatter or break up within 30° at the elevated test velocities, primarely because it used decremental hardneing.
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Re: TM 9-1907 doc

Post by Mobius » 18 Nov 2020 09:34

Contender wrote:
24 Jan 2019 21:26
I am looking for 1944 version of TM 9-1907, Ballistic Data, Performance of Ammunition document :
Image
Any help is appreciated.
I have photocopies of both issue dates of TM 9 1907 and the PDFs of N4636B,C,C2 Terminal Ballistics data vol s are as good or better than the photocopies. They do have bomb and shell fragment range template illustrations which I don't remember seeing elsewhere.

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