Backdoor to war theory - do you believe it?

[ljadw]

Lets see: first its let talk about the word "War" what does it really mean? Next, its lets talk about whether Japan 1936-1945 = "during WW2". And now its does the Pulitzer equals quality 100% of the time. As opposed to 95% or 82.5% of the time, I suppose. Anyway, sorry you have negative feelings about Toland.

Toland blamed Hitler for the escape of half of the BEF at Dunkirk . Toland's only source was Hitler als Feldherr .
Toland said that if Franco had signed an alliance with Hitler,Hitler would have domination of North Africa .
Toland had been sleeping during the lessons of geography at school ,or maybe the teacher was telling the children that Algeria was a Spanish colony .
If he made such elementary mistakes about the war in Europe, why would one trust what he said about Japan ?

[rcocean]

I'd rather have a good apple pie than cherry. cherry is good, but not up to the apple pie

[isshikiuchiha]

The Roosevelt cabinet was at least two times unanimous in 1942 when they agreed that FDR could be able to obtain the proclamation of war with Germany by Congress. Stimson kept these discussions in his diary. The one I remember was on July 5, 1941. Stimson took notes throughout the day, but he didn't keep a record of his diary each day This event was noted in his entry for July 7, 1941.
For those who want to be sure that the war with Japan could lead Germany and its Germans into a conflict with us however, we have a solution. Tripartite Pact doesn't require that. fmwhatsapp download fouad whatsapp apk download

[OpanaPointer]

"Tripartite Pact doesn't require that."

Yep. You can always tell someone who's "lightly read" in a topic.

[ShindenKai]

Read "Day of Deceit" by Robert B. Stinnett (a Pacific war veteran himself), he used FOIA requests: 200,000 documents that absolutely shatter the shibboleth that 12/07/41 was a surprise attack. There was an actual eight-step plan put in place to force Japan into the first overt act of war. We were "reading their mail" and even knew Japanese spies had sent maps of installations at PH to Japan.

[OpanaPointer]

Read "Day of Deceit" by Robert B. Stinnett (a Pacific war veteran himself), he used FOIA requests: 200,000 documents that absolutely shatter the shibboleth that 12/07/41 was a surprise attack. There was an actual eight-step plan put in place to force Japan into the first overt act of war. We were "reading their mail" and even knew Japanese spies had sent maps of installations at PH to Japan.

Stinnett was an idiot. He claimed to have "secret" intercepts revealing Japanese plans. The dude then gives us the source, the Pearl Harbor Attack Hearings. The "intercepts" were copies of responses to questionnaires given to Japanese involved in the attack, completed during the MacArthur shogunate.

He also claims that we intercept radio messages from IJN tankers waiting to refuel Nagumo Kido Butai. He "proves" this with the location of the transmissions. He didn't know one side of the international dateline.

[jjii1021]

Most people are aware of the conspiracy theories that Roosevelt knew about the Pearl Harbor attack. That Roosevelt let the attack happen to get the US into the war. Usually when this theory is discussed people focus on intelligence reports and whether or not the Japanese codes were broken. While this aspect of the theory is certainly important I wanted to focus more on the diplomatic side - Roosevelt's overall dealings with Japan. So a key part of the theory is that Roosevelt provoked Japan into war. Now although the US had interests in the Pacific and in China Roosevelt recognized the main threat was Germany. So according to the theory Roosevelt first tried the direct approach - provoke Germany through a series of incidents at sea but when that failed he turned to Japan. I have read almost exhaustively the diplomatic records between Japan and the US. The impression I have is that Japan was willing to make concessions but the US took a hard line approach. The main talks began in April 1941 and had reached a dead end by late November. At the beginning one could argue the US thought Japan would back down. However as time went on both sides started getting frustrated. Things reached a turning point in July when Roosevelt imposed an oil embargo. The Japanese continued to negotiate and offered concessions but Roosevelt refused to give on anything - even refusing to meet the Japanese prime minister prince Konoe who asked for a meeting. By the fall the Japanese feeling they were getting nowhere began making plans to attack. The oil embargo was now hurting them very much and if the US wouldn't lift it through negotiations they would have to go to war. Intelligence reports soon picked up on the Japanese preparations. Roosevelt now had a choice - make concessions or prepare for war. He chose the second option. The problem here is that both the military and Roosevelt himself agreed that Germany was the main threat. They had even told him several times to move the fleet to the Atlantic but Roosevelt refused. Such a strategy doesn't make sense unless Roosevelt thought a war with Japan would lead to war with Germany. So how would that happen? Supporters of the backdoor to war argue two key pieces of evidence - first there was the tripartite pact signed in September 1940 where Germany, Italy and Japan agreed to support each other in war. The second piece of evidence is that in March Hitler told the Japanese foreign minister he would support Japan in war with the US - even if Japan attacked first. Roosevelt apparently found out about this. So now Roosevelt knew that if he could get into war with Japan Germany would join in. Indeed 4 days after Pearl Harbor Germany declared war on the US. Unfortunately there are some holes here. The tripartite pact was a defensive pact - Germany only had to come in if Japan was attacked by the US - not the other way around. Now in March Hitler did promise he would join in even if Japan attacked first however assuming Roosevelt was aware of this how did he know Hitler wasn't lying? Hitler had in fact broken numerous treaties before. It would in fact be in his best interest to let the US fight Japan while he dealt with Britain and the SU. Hitler had a long record of broken promises. This is the big hole in the theory - there is no definite link to show war with Japan equals war with Germany. Now some versions of theory are more inventive. They argue that if there was war with Japan the isolationist movement would end and the US would be more interventionist - that Roosevelt might get congress to declare war on Germany. However Roosevelt here would be taking a bit of a gamble. Another point to keep in mind is that Japan could have chosen not to attack Pearl Harbor or the Philippines - there were multiple targets they could have gone after. Without the spectacular attack on Pearl Harbor Roosevelt might not even if had gotten war with Japan. But this all leaves us back at square one. So the conclusion is that there are either intelligence reports we don't know about, Roosevelt was so desperate to get into the war he took a gamble or he had no strategy in the Pacific and was just being stubborn. Thoughts?

Firstly, there was some uncertainty as to whether Germany would enter the war with Japan. Although Hitler had in some cases expressed a willingness to support Japan, his credibility and commitment were also in doubt. There is no conclusive evidence that a war with Japan would automatically lead to a war with Germany.
Secondly, there were also doubts about whether Roosevelt knew Hitler's true intentions. Hitler had reneged on many treaties in the past and his interests were more in favour of having the United States fight Japan while he himself dealt with Britain and the Soviet Union. How could Roosevelt be sure that Hitler would not lie again?
There were also other factors that could have influenced Roosevelt's decision-making, such as his perception of the German threat, domestic political considerations, and military advice. In a complex diplomatic and military environment, it is difficult to reduce decisions to a single motive.
Finally, although Japan attacked at Pearl Harbor, this does not mean that Roosevelt intentionally started the war. Japan could have chosen to attack other targets than Pearl Harbor. Therefore, it is problematic to assume that Roosevelt set Pearl Harbor as a target simply to start a war.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Firstly, there was some uncertainty as to whether Germany would enter the war with Japan. Although Hitler had in some cases expressed a willingness to support Japan, his credibility and commitment were also in doubt. There is no conclusive evidence that a war with Japan would automatically lead to a war with Germany.

Beyond those items there is Hitler erratic decision making. In the case of his decision for war with the US he dithered for two days before committing. Previously he had discussed the possibility & timing of a DoW previously in 1941, until other matters distracted him &the question was tabled.

Secondly, there were also doubts about whether Roosevelt knew Hitler's true intentions. Hitler had reneged on many treaties in the past and his interests were more in favour of having the United States fight Japan while he himself dealt with Britain and the Soviet Union. How could Roosevelt be sure that Hitler would not lie again?
There were also other factors that could have influenced Roosevelt's decision-making, such as his perception of the German threat, domestic political considerations, and military advice. In a complex diplomatic and military environment, it is difficult to reduce decisions to a single motive.

US intelligence on Hitlers thinking was rather spotty. Aside from his eccentric out of the box thinking, and erratic decision making he consciously concealed a hefty portion of his thoughts. That had to do with internal nazi party politics and keeping his supporters & staff guessing and divided. But, it also kept his enemies confused as well.