where does the ronson nickname come from?

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paulrward
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Re: where does the ronson nickname come from?

Post by paulrward » 10 Aug 2020 02:33

Hello All :

To Mr. Thumpalumpacus :

They were not apparently interested in the wheel, but rather the torsion bar suspension system. The torsion
bars on a Panther run from one side of the hull to the other, and are down at the bottom of the hull. Removing
them with the Turret Basket and the engine / transmission down there would be a bear, especially in the field.

So, what they doubtless did was get one or more recovery vehicles, hook a bunch of big tow chains and cables
to right side of the Panther, string the chains and cables OVER the Panther, position the recovery vehicles so
they were on the left side of the Panther, attach the tow chains and cables to them, and have them simply
drive away from the Panther. The Panther's tracks and bogies on the left side of the tank would dig into the
soft dirt, and then the right side of the Panther would start to lift off the ground. As the recovery vehicles
continuted to drive away, the Panther would tip higher and higher until it flopped onto it's side.

If you think it can't be done, there are a few YouTube Videos showing how the British Tank Recovery Vehicle
Teams could put a tank back on it's tracks, so it is simply a matter of F = M A . Or, to put it another way,
B. F. & M. I.

This gave the technical guys access to the bottom of the Panther. You can see from the photo of the bottom
of the Panther that it appears they spray washed an area clean, to get the muck and grease off the bottom, and
then they simply removed some really BIG bolts, and, voila! the underside of the tank is open for pillaging !

There was a lot of interest in German torsion bar suspension, and, what was more, the torsion bars themselves
were very usefull, being an extremely high grade of steel. They could be put on a lathe or mill and turned into
all sorts of usefull things like emergency spare parts, fittings, etc., that every army needs in the field.

The armor could be stripped off and scabbed onto M4 Shermans to make them somewhat more shot proof,
and you can be sure that the diesel engines were being studied.


" Fas est et ab hoste doceri. " Ovid, ' Metamorphoses '


The important point that we should not be ignoring is, in the photo with the lady and the young boy, you can
clearly see the impact points of large caliber hits, probably 75 -76mm in size, that DID NOT PENETRATE
the frontal glacis plate. This confirms the tests conducted in July and August, especially the tests conducted
on three different Panthers, where it was discovered that there were manufacturing inconsistencies in the
armor quality from one tank to the next.

This is the elephant in the room that some people are trying to studiously ignore: The Panther's frontal armor
could take a hit from a Sherman 75 mm M3, and shrug it off, while the Panther's 75mm shell would go right
through the front hull of a Sherman. You can see a video showing a just such a test at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFQhFTq45DU

You should watch the video to the end, however, as there is also snippets of interviews with two german tank
crewmen, both of whom state, very unequivocably, that the Sherman would ' light up ' very quickly when hit, and
one of them refers to the Sherman as a ...... wait for it...... A RONSON !

" We called the Shermans ' Ronsons ' after the firelighter, because, mostly with the first round they blew up .
The Sherman always went up - shooting flames with the first round ! "

Helmut Ritgen, Panzer Commander,
author of Panzer Lehr in the West: A History of the Panzer Lehr Division 1943-45


Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward
Last edited by paulrward on 10 Aug 2020 04:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Michael Kenny
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Re: where does the ronson nickname come from?

Post by Michael Kenny » 10 Aug 2020 03:26

paulrward wrote:
10 Aug 2020 02:33


This gave the technical guys access to the bottom of the Panther. You can see from the photo of the bottom
of the Panther that it appears they spray washed an area clean, to get the muck and grease off the bottom, and
then they simply removed some really BIG bolts, and, voila! the underside of the tank is open for pillaging !

There was a lot of interest in German torsion bar suspension, and, what was more, the torsion bars themselves
were very usefull, being an extremely high grade of steel. They could be put on a lathe or mill and turned into
all sorts of usefull things like emergency spare parts, fittings, etc., that every army needs in the field. ........
There was no 'field' technical examination. All that was done in the UK after they shipped the tank back to the UK. That is why there were no firing trials done on a Panther until mid 1944. The Allies only had two intact examples and they did not waste them as targets and one was only used up as such when the engine blew up and it caught fire
These 5 Panther wrecks were used as target/weapons test-beds. I posted the(not widely available) pic of the Panther with its belly exposed and it is far too low res to be able to claim it was 'spray-washed'.
Here it is enlarged :
opines.jpg
But here is another one just up the road which is also upended.
B6053 ish Norrey Panthers,,,,,,,,,,,, (3).jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Michael Kenny
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Re: where does the ronson nickname come from?

Post by Michael Kenny » 10 Aug 2020 03:33

paulrward wrote:
10 Aug 2020 02:33
especially the tests conducted
on three different Panthers, where it was discovered that there were manufacturing inconsistencies in the
armor quality from one tank to the next.

Translation:

As some shot penetrated the Panthers a reason must be found to explain this away so the 'No true Scotsman' excuse is used.
The penetrated Panthers must have been inferior quality and therefore 'not real Panthers. Good old CM used to use it all the time.

paulrward
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Re: where does the ronson nickname come from?

Post by paulrward » 10 Aug 2020 04:37

Hello All ;

The conclusion that there was variability in the frontal glacis plates of Panther tanks is NOT mine, it was the
conclusion of the technical experts who conducted the firing tests in the spring and summer of 1944.


You can find the text of the tests at the Wargaming Info website.

U.S. Army 1944 Firing Test No.1 - https://wargaming.info/1998/us-army-194 ... zC5OIhKipo

U.S. Army 1944 Firing Test No.2 - https://wargaming.info/1998/us-army-194 ... zC5bYhKipo

U.S. Army 1944 Firing Test No.3 - https://wargaming.info/1998/us-army-194 ... zC4JohKipo


In the text in Firing Test No. 3, conducted in August, 1944, the following is stated :
b. Wide variation was found in the quality of glacis plate on the three tanks.
Tank No.2 (hereafter referred to as the “best plate”) sustained 30 hits at ranges from
600 to 200 yards without cracking. Tanks Nos.1 and 3 (hereafter referred to as
“average plate”) cracked after relatively few hits. All conclusions are, therefore,
based solely on the relative performance of rounds fired at a single plate.
Comparisons are not made between rounds fired at different plates. Also, the
performance of any ammunition in this test cannot be considered a criterion as
to the range at which it will penetrate the front plate of a Panther tank…
[last few words of sentence are illegible].

So, 76 years ago, someone got an inkling that the Germans were having metallurgical problems.....

Mr. Kenny, in posting # 62, stated the following :
These 5 Panther wrecks were used as target/weapons test-beds. I posted the
(not widely available) pic of the Panther with its belly exposed and it is far too low
res to be able to claim it was 'spray-washed'.

Mr. Kenny, when I stated yesterday that it appeard that the Panther in your pictures had been used for weapons
tests, you went ballistic. Now, you are conceding that the five Panther wrecks were used as weapons test beds.
Thank you for conceding the obvious.

As for the photo of the Panther set on it's side, YOU STILL HAVE NOT PROVIDED AN EXPLANATION OF HOW THE
LIMEY ( CANADIAN ) OFFICERS COULD BE PHOTOGRAPHED EXAMINING THAT PANTHER RESTING ON IT'S TRACKS,
AND THEN A LADY AND HER SON COULD BE PHOTOGRAPHED NEXT TO THE SAME TANK, LYING ON ITS SIDE WITH
TRACKS AND ONE SET OF BOGIES REMOVED !


How did that happen, Mr. Kenny ? Do you have a report that tells you what happened, or can you just use
your common sense ? C'mon, Mr. Kenny, tell us. How did that Panther end up on it's side ? The damned things
weight over 45 tons ! They don't just turn over by themselves !

Finally, that picture you posted in # 62 that you claim is too low in resolution to be able to claim was 'spray-washed' .

Mr Kenny, I copied and and pasted the picture into Microsoft Paint, enlarged it on my screen, and I can not only see
that the underside was clearly washed, I can also see that a number of cross chassis torsion bars that should be
clearly visible in the opened belly of the Panther are NOT visible, in other words, they have been removed, either
for study, for re-processing into useful parts for the Allied War Effort, or for souvenirs.

Mr. Kenny, you state that the resolution is too low. I have just one word for you:

Opthamologist.




Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward
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Michael Kenny
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Re: where does the ronson nickname come from?

Post by Michael Kenny » 10 Aug 2020 04:56

paulrward wrote:
10 Aug 2020 02:33


This is the elephant in the room that some people are trying to studiously ignore: The Panther's frontal armor
could take a hit from a Sherman 75 mm M3, and shrug it off, while the Panther's 75mm shell would go right
through the front hull of a Sherman.
Picture the scene.
Meyer has to call the Fuhrer and explain how the attack to drive the Allies out of Normandy is progressing:

HM: Great news mien Fuhrer. The Panther glacis can not be penetrated by a 75mm Sherman. The crews feel invulnerable.

AH: Excellent Meyer, when will you reach the beaches and deliver me another Dunkirk,

HM: Err............not going to well boss. We attacked 4 times at Bretteville and had our arses handed to us every time. We are stuck.

AH: Yes, yes, yes. Don't bother me with unimportant details. Tell me have we kept a 5:1 kill ratio overall and a 10:1 ratio for combat losses.?



HM: Err............... We lost 9 Panther, 15 crew killed and most of the survivors with burns.


AH: Never mind, at least we knocked out 90 Shermans


HM: We did not knock out any Shermans.

AH: Englander schweinehund! Why can they not just fire at the front of our Panthers? Trust them to play dirty and shoot at the rear and sides of our tanks. We shall have to change The Geneva Convention in order to make it a War Crime not to engage our tanks frontally, one-on-one in an open field.

HM: At least our Panther losses serve some purpose. They validate the British OR Teams who found that 75% of hits on a Panther tank penetrate.

AH: Incoherant screams and sounds of breaking glass, a plaintive wail of 'never penetrated frontally.'.................'fair fight' .........'non combat losses' ................. 'ran out of fuel'...........piercing scream................'Hadler restart the Maus production'.................' they think I am mad do they, I will show them'................Cue music and all the Generals in the room with Hitler break into the chorus of...

.
.https://youtu.be/2fg7w49UnGA?t=20

Michael Kenny
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Re: where does the ronson nickname come from?

Post by Michael Kenny » 10 Aug 2020 05:04

paulrward wrote:
10 Aug 2020 04:37



when I stated yesterday that it appeard that the Panther in your pictures had been used for weapons
tests, you went ballistic. Now, you are conceding that the five Panther wrecks were used as weapons test beds.
Thank you for conceding the obvious.

Did I really? Then why on earth would I write this 4 years ago:


Michael Kenny wrote:
24 Apr 2016 18:31
These wrecks were used extensively for target practice and they ended up looking like sieves.
See the photos

viewtopic.php?p=2012857#p2012857

Michael Kenny
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Re: where does the ronson nickname come from?

Post by Michael Kenny » 10 Aug 2020 05:08

paulrward wrote:
10 Aug 2020 04:37


you state that the resolution is too low. I have just one word for you:

Opthamologist.
My original is 418 KB.

Michael Kenny
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Re: where does the ronson nickname come from?

Post by Michael Kenny » 10 Aug 2020 06:29

paulrward wrote:
10 Aug 2020 04:37

b. Wide variation was found in the quality of glacis plate on the three tanks.
Tank No.2 (hereafter referred to as the “best plate”) sustained 30 hits at ranges from
600 to 200 yards without cracking. Tanks Nos.1 and 3 (hereafter referred to as
“average plate”) cracked after relatively few hits. All conclusions are, therefore,
based solely on the relative performance of rounds fired at a single plate.
Comparisons are not made between rounds fired at different plates. Also, the
performance of any ammunition in this test cannot be considered a criterion as
to the range at which it will penetrate the front plate of a Panther tank…
[last few words of sentence are illegible].

So, 76 years ago, someone got an inkling that the Germans were having metallurgical problems.....

Panther No. 2 (best plate) was penetrated through the glacis by a 17 pdr. and through the lower nose plate by 17 pdr and 76mm.
There was no testing done on the Panther armour quality and it was sorted by the 'No true Scotsman' method. If it cracked (Panthers 1 & 3) it was designated 'average' and if it did not crack it was called 'best'.

times

Gooner1
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Re: where does the ronson nickname come from?

Post by Gooner1 » 10 Aug 2020 12:04

Michael Kenny wrote:
10 Aug 2020 04:56

HM: At least our Panther losses serve some purpose. They validate the British OR Teams who found that 75% of hits on a Panther tank penetrate.
Sadly the percentage of hits that penetrated a Sherman were close to 95%.

Sherman crews could also take little comfort in that it would take less than two hits for their tank to 'cook-off', it would take four hits on a Panther for the same, on average.

paulrward
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Re: where does the ronson nickname come from?

Post by paulrward » 10 Aug 2020 21:14

Hello All :

Hello Mr. Gooner1

You know, this constant quoting of the alleged ' factoid ' from the O.R. Teams that " 75 % of hits on a
Panther result in penetration ' reminds me of a quote often attributed to Samuel Clemens ( Mark Twain ),
" Figures Don't Lie, But Liars Figure ! "

If you had a dead Panther sitting in a field, and you rolled an M4 Sherman 'Firefly' up to it, fired one round
into each side from 100 meters, both of which penetrate, aother round into the rear of the Panther from
100 meters, which penetrates, and then finally fire a round into the front Glacis Plate, which DOES NOT PENETRATE, then, Lo and Behold, you have a 75 % penetration rate on the Panther using the 17 pounder !

And since the O.R. Teams were only studying ' dead ' Panthers, they had the opposite of ' Survivors Bias ' to
deal with. In other words, they were ONLY looking at Panthers that had been penetrated. Since there are
four sides on a Panther, and, theoretically, if you got close enough with your 17 pounder to get a penetration
on either the sides or the rear, then it makes sense that you will be looking at a higher proportion of Panthers
that did get penetrated, in the only areas that the 17 pounder could be effective.


Mr. Gooner1, have you noticed that I posted a link to a YouTube video wherein a veteran of the Panzer Lehr,
who, during his lifetime wrote an account of that divisions activities in the West, and who faced M4 Shermans
in combat, has openly referred to the M4 as a ' Ronson ' ? And that none of the Sherman Fanboys have responded
to this ? I think that silence is very telling....



This Thread started with the question posed by Mr. Aurelien Wolff, " Where did the name ' Ronson ' come from ? "

So, in answer to Mr. Aurelien Wolff' s question :
I got to wonder if these deregatory name for the sherman come from
death trap (wich honestly shouldn't be use as a source for the sherman) or
the narrative that sherman was a bad tank(wich seem to be quite a lot in
documentary/pôp history article)


The Term ' Ronson ' was applied to the M4 Sherman Tanks by the German Tiger and Panther Tank crews, who,
as one veteran stated,
" We called the Shermans ' Ronsons ' after the firelighter, because, mostly
with the first round they blew up . The Sherman always went up - shooting flames
with the first round ! "


Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward
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Re: where does the ronson nickname come from?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 10 Aug 2020 22:00

From Post #61
paulrward wrote:
10 Aug 2020 02:33
...
and you can be sure that the diesel engines were being studied.
This caught my eye. Which diesel engines were those?

paulrward
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Re: where does the ronson nickname come from?

Post by paulrward » 10 Aug 2020 22:41

Hello All :

To Mr. Schwamberger :

The German 234 series eight wheeled armored car had a very excellent, light weight diesel that was intensely
interesting to the Allies. Captured examples were studied. This also applied to the U-Boat diesels, which
the USN had a major interest in, as it must be remembered, a lot of the technology in USN submarine diesels
was based on late 1920s - early 1930s German patents that the United States had licensed. As a result, the
German U-boats that were captured were carefully picked over by USN technical types, as well as industry
experts, to find any technical details that could be adapted to improve the USN submarine fleet.

Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward
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Voices that are banned, are voices who cannot share information....
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Michael Kenny
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Re: where does the ronson nickname come from?

Post by Michael Kenny » 10 Aug 2020 22:54

Error is pointed out:
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
10 Aug 2020 22:00

This caught my eye. Which diesel engines were those?
Reply with laughable attempt to recover from claiming the Panther had a diesel engine:

paulrward wrote:
10 Aug 2020 22:41

The German 234 series eight wheeled armored car had a very excellent, light weight diesel that was intensely
interesting to the Allies. Captured examples were studied. This also applied to the U-Boat diesels, which
the USN had a major interest in, as it must be remembered, a lot of the technology in USN submarine diesels
was based on late 1920s - early 1930s German patents that the United States had licensed. As a result, the
German U-boats that were captured were carefully picked over by USN technical types, as well as industry
experts, to find any technical details that could be adapted to improve the USN submarine fleet.
Original claim where there is no doubt it is a Panther engine that is being discussed:
paulrward wrote:
10 Aug 2020 02:33

This gave the technical guys access to the bottom of the Panther. You can see from the photo of the bottom
of the Panther that it appears they spray washed an area clean, to get the muck and grease off the bottom, and
then they simply removed some really BIG bolts, and, voila! the underside of the tank is open for pillaging !

There was a lot of interest in German torsion bar suspension, and, what was more, the torsion bars themselves
were very usefull, being an extremely high grade of steel. They could be put on a lathe or mill and turned into
all sorts of usefull things like emergency spare parts, fittings, etc., that every army needs in the field.

The armor could be stripped off and scabbed onto M4 Shermans to make them somewhat more shot proof,
and you can be sure that the diesel engines were being studied.

paulrward
Member
Posts: 479
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 20:14

Re: where does the ronson nickname come from?

Post by paulrward » 10 Aug 2020 23:08

Hello All :

to Mr. Michael Kenny :

You will have to excuse my lack to precision in that posting - I had just undergone a root canal in preparation
for the fitting of a crown on a broken molar, so my typing skills, as well as my ability to eat, have been impacted.

Which leads me to ask again, HOW DID THAT PANTHER IN YOUR PHOTOGRAPHS GET TURNED ON IT'S SIDE ?
Please, Mr. Kenny, I am dying to find out how you can explain that....

And, now that I have produced evidence that German Tank crewmen called the M4 Sherman a ' Ronson ', are
you ever going to abandon your Sherman Fanboy obsession ?

Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward
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Voices that are banned, are voices who cannot share information....
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Michael Kenny
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Re: where does the ronson nickname come from?

Post by Michael Kenny » 10 Aug 2020 23:15

paulrward wrote:
10 Aug 2020 21:14
one veteran stated,

' We called the Shermans ' Ronsons ' after the firelighter, because, mostly
with the first round they blew up . The Sherman always went up - shooting flames
with the first round ! "

Check his (Helmut Ritgen) book for another of his claims. Page 307 where he states 'Contrary to international law, about 1.6 million German Prisoners Of War starved to death. No matter how hard you check the rest of his book '(The Western front 1944) you will not find a single reference to 'Ronson'.

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