Why does the USA seem to have no deployable Presidential Guard?

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LineDoggie
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Re: Why does the USA seem to have no deployable Presidential Guard?

Post by LineDoggie » 17 Mar 2021 18:34

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
17 Mar 2021 15:18


Congress was able to cave in to the fiscal conservatives and not authorize a large Bonus payout for the Great War veterans.
The Bonus was planned previous to the march to be paid in 1945, it over President Harding's 1922 Veto

Coolidge also Vetoed a bill for immediate bonuses in 1924-


The eventual amount was the same $500 but the later act made it payable in treasury bonds
Last edited by LineDoggie on 17 Mar 2021 18:37, edited 1 time in total.
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LineDoggie
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Re: Why does the USA seem to have no deployable Presidential Guard?

Post by LineDoggie » 17 Mar 2021 18:36

Rob Stuart wrote:
17 Mar 2021 17:41
Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Mar 2021 11:18
Other countries have civilian presidencies and a specifically designated Presidential Guard.
Could you please give some examples.
Presidential Guard may refer to:

President Guard Regiment (Bangladesh)
Presidential Guard Regiment (Turkey)
Presidential Guard (Greece)
Presidential Guard (Belarus)
Presidential Guard (South Vietnam)
President's Own Guard Regiment (Ghana)
Special Presidential Division (Zaire)
Presidential Guard (Zimbabwe)
Presidential Guard Brigade (Uganda)
Presidential Guard Brigade (Mexico)
The Kremlin Regiment or Presidential Regiment of Russia
Presidential Guard Battalion (Brazil)
Regiment of Presidential Security (Burkina Faso)
President's Bodyguard (India)
La Moneda Palace Guard (Chile)
Palestinian Presidential Guard (State of Palestine)
Bolivian Colorados Regiment (Bolivia)
Paspampres (Indonesia)
Presidential National Guard (Tajikistan)
State Protection and Guard Service of Moldova, formerly the Presidential Guard Serive
Presidential Guard Brigade (Nigeria)
Presidential Guard (Cameroon)
United Arab Emirates Presidential Guard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Guard
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Re: Why does the USA seem to have no deployable Presidential Guard?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 17 Mar 2021 18:44

LineDoggie wrote:
17 Mar 2021 18:16
OpanaPointer wrote:
17 Mar 2021 13:15
The governors of Virginia and Maryland, IIRC, have recently stated that their Guards are responsible for the safety of the US Capitol and associated building. The posse comitatus issue will have to be sorted out.
Posse Comitatus does not affect State troops only Federal ones. Federal Can be used if the POTUS invokes the Insurrection act as in these examples-

aftermath of a hurricane in the US Virgin islands in 1989
the LA riots 1992 E.O. 12804
1967 Detroit
1968 3 times in 2 days in Chicago and DC, Baltimore
Was acquainted with a California Guardsman who was deployed to the LA riots. He told me the deployment of his unarmed hospital unit cleared the rioters out of a ten block radius.

Unofficially a det. of a dozen Marines was deployed to Plainfield Illinois to assist in halting looting after the August 1990 tornado. The local LE was initially overwhelmed. We showed up with a few pistols and nightsticks, anticipated in a sweep of the apartment blocks & then stood guard all night. The National Guard showed up at 08:30 the next morning & we went home. There was not official authorization of this, but Captain Zelie managed to get us all awarded a Humanitarian Service medal for our night of missed sleep & picking over the site for missing persons.

A old friend of mine & Master Sgt in the Army Special Forces had his team diverted from a training exercise in the Rockies to look for a armed fugitive. (his team had no ammo), they made a location, but the LE was in chaos over jurisdiction & who was in charge. So this unofficial Federal assistance EndEx ed & went back to Ft Carson.

I could go on, but estimate theres at least two dozen cases in the past five decades of Federal military personnel acting as a unit without official sanction or orders participating in restoring order & related actions. But, since theres no documentation it never happened. Right?

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Re: Why does the USA seem to have no deployable Presidential Guard?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 17 Mar 2021 18:58

LineDoggie wrote:
17 Mar 2021 18:34
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
17 Mar 2021 15:18


Congress was able to cave in to the fiscal conservatives and not authorize a large Bonus payout for the Great War veterans.
The Bonus was planned previous to the march to be paid in 1945, it over President Harding's 1922 Veto

Coolidge also Vetoed a bill for immediate bonuses in 1924-


The eventual amount was the same $500 but the later act made it payable in treasury bonds
I would not guess at the economic impact in 1932 of paying out $500, $250, or even $100 per veteran. $100 in that era I am estimating is about $1,800 to $2,000 in todays dollars. The full bonus the equivalent of around $9,500 today. Inflation has been unkind since 1972. Neither do I know how many Great War Veterans rated the Bonus. 1,000,000 men equals $ 500,000,000. Which looks like it might be $79,000,000,000 in todays purchasing power. Feel free to calculate this your self.

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Re: Why does the USA seem to have no deployable Presidential Guard?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Mar 2021 20:05

Hi Carl S.,

At almost exactly the same time the Dominion of Newfoundland (not then part of Canada) went bankrupt and had to return temporarily to rule from London. One of the main reasons was the heavy burden of pensions for its WWI veterans. It not only had no guard unit, it could afford no army at all! It had to send police and veterans to the Coronation of King George VI.

Cheers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 17 Mar 2021 21:21, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Why does the USA seem to have no deployable Presidential Guard?

Post by OpanaPointer » 17 Mar 2021 21:19

LineDoggie wrote:
17 Mar 2021 18:16
OpanaPointer wrote:
17 Mar 2021 13:15
The governors of Virginia and Maryland, IIRC, have recently stated that their Guards are responsible for the safety of the US Capitol and associated building. The posse comitatus issue will have to be sorted out.
Posse Comitatus does not affect State troops only Federal ones. Federal Can be used if the POTUS invokes the Insurrection act as in these examples-

aftermath of a hurricane in the US Virgin islands in 1989
the LA riots 1992 E.O. 12804
1967 Detroit
1968 3 times in 2 days in Chicago and DC, Baltimore
And the troops will be federalized when Congress so deems necessary. Or not. Maybe both. Maybe neither. Nice fuzzy area we got there.
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Re: Why does the USA seem to have no deployable Presidential Guard?

Post by Rob Stuart » 17 Mar 2021 22:04

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Mar 2021 17:55
Hi Rob Stuart,

Brazil, Argentina, Venezuela and Colombia spring to mind in the Americas and there are others. Mexico had one until a couple of years ago. Some of the Argentine presidential guard were apparently attached to other units in the Falklands Conflict. The Grenadier Guard of Canada, although a territorial unit, combines ceremonial and military functions.

Cheers,

Sid.
The Montreal-based Canadian Grenadier Guards (CGG) and the Ottawa-based Governor General’s Foot Guards (GGFG) share responsibility for providing the ceremonial guard at Rideau Hall and on Parliament Hill. Rideau Hall, in Ottawa, is the official residence of the Governor-General, who performs the same functions in Canada as the Queen does in the UK, e.g., signing bills into law. These two regiments, which both have just one under-strength battalion, are Primary Reserve infantry units like all of the other ones in the Canadian Army, except that they also have this ceremonial duty. (The Primary Reserve is the equivalent to the UK's TA. The closest US equivalent would be the National Guard, but the latter normally remains under State control. In Canada it's the opposite, i.e., the federal government always controls reserve units.)

At least one other army reserve unit has the word "guard" in its name, namely the Toronto-based Governor General's Horse Guards (GGHG), but it has the same functions as any other reserve armoured unit, and, despite its name, has no special ceremonial role.

Canada has no counterpart to the US Secret Service. Security of Parliament, of the residences of the PM and GG, and of diplomatic missions located here is provided by the police.

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Re: Why does the USA seem to have no deployable Presidential Guard?

Post by Kingfish » 18 Mar 2021 00:41

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Mar 2021 11:18
Tradition I get, but why was the tradition developed in the first place?
Because our founding fathers recognized the importance of keeping the military separate, and subordinate to, the seat of government.
Other countries have civilian presidencies and a specifically designated Presidential Guard.
Yes but what purpose do they serve and from what historical origin are they derived?

As pointed out some are simply to carry out ceremonial duties, while others were true "guard" outfits tasked with protecting the titular head of state. The latter were more common in places were the coup was an all too frequent occurrence.
Was it, perhaps, to prevent the President having a monopoly of military power in the seat of Government?
See my first answer above.
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Re: Why does the USA seem to have no deployable Presidential Guard?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 18 Mar 2021 01:42

Rob Stuart wrote:
17 Mar 2021 22:04
Canada has no counterpart to the US Secret Service. Security of Parliament, of the residences of the PM and GG, and of diplomatic missions located here is provided by the police.
Technically the Secret Service are Federal Police. They Presidential guard section were originally drawn from Treasury agents who investigate counterfeiting and other financial crimes. A alternative would have been Federal Marshals. However they worked for the Attorney General which as a separate branch of the Federal government. The Treasury was under the Executive branch, the President, which kept it simpler. In the 19th Century Washington DC Police were also tapped for presidential guards & they still work with the Secret Service for presidential or executive security.

But really, all that is to keep the nut cases at bay. To prevent coups and other organized unpleasantness you dont need more than one USMC Major
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Re: Why does the USA seem to have no deployable Presidential Guard?

Post by Rob Stuart » 18 Mar 2021 13:58

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
18 Mar 2021 01:42
Rob Stuart wrote:
17 Mar 2021 22:04
Canada has no counterpart to the US Secret Service. Security of Parliament, of the residences of the PM and GG, and of diplomatic missions located here is provided by the police.
Technically the Secret Service are Federal Police.
In American crime dramas, federal law enforcement personnel never yell "Federal police!" or even just "Police!". They always yell something like "FBI, don't move!" or "Federal agents!". Based on that admittedly non-authoritative evidence, I would have thought that Secret Service members would be called Federal Agents rather than Federal Police. Or is there a nuance I'm missing?

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Re: Why does the USA seem to have no deployable Presidential Guard?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 18 Mar 2021 16:56

Just that in the 19th Century Police, Marshal, or slang terms like 'Coppers' were common. Federal appears a lot less often & as far as I have seen originated in the military & courts context. But, what meant is they are police officers who work for the Federal government. In 19th Century theres some legal distinctions, and assumptions about legal distinction, surrounding terms like Police. But, I'm not knowledgeable beyond that. As far as I can recall 'Treasury Agent' was the original appellation of the Secret Service. They started as Treasury employees who investigated counterfeiting. US Marshals started out as the bulls who enforced warrants and questioning for the Attorney General & Federal courts. US Army officers had some LE authority in Federally administered territory, Customs Agents or officials also had a police or LE function, so theres four forms of Federal police or LE emerged by the early 19th Century.

It would probably take a expert in 19th Century North American English to sort this out for us as far as names go. I've read a few books, but that just cuts a thin slice.

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Re: Why does the USA seem to have no deployable Presidential Guard?

Post by rcocean » 31 Mar 2021 17:59

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
17 Mar 2021 15:18
Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Mar 2021 14:43
Hi Opanapointer,

I presume you mean "National Guard"?

Apart from its 2,000 man police force, I presume that Congress has never had a military guard of its own?

Cheers,

Sid.
The political results were:
Hoovers reputation was damaged.

Mac became the darling of the anti Communists. Congress was able to cave in to the fiscal conservatives and not authorize a large Bonus payout for the Great War veterans.
What an odd way of putting it. MacArthur put a big target on his back, and became the hate figure of the Liberals and the Communists who continued to attack him all through the 30s, including pressuring FDR to get rid of him as chief of staff, and not appoint him to Head Commissioner of the Philippines.

Caving into Conservatives? No, they had already decided not to give the Bonus, and Congress was even more firm in not giving the $$ under the pressure of the Communist inspired march. yes, I said it. The Bonus march was a communist inspired stunt. when ordered to leave, they refused to do so, and had to be driven out. Too bad, but its not like Hoover was going to win re-election anyway.

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Re: Why does the USA seem to have no deployable Presidential Guard?

Post by Delta Tank » 22 Apr 2021 15:47


Delta Tank
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Re: Why does the USA seem to have no deployable Presidential Guard?

Post by Delta Tank » 22 Apr 2021 15:54

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
18 Mar 2021 01:42
Rob Stuart wrote:
17 Mar 2021 22:04
Canada has no counterpart to the US Secret Service. Security of Parliament, of the residences of the PM and GG, and of diplomatic missions located here is provided by the police.
Technically the Secret Service are Federal Police. They Presidential guard section were originally drawn from Treasury agents who investigate counterfeiting and other financial crimes. A alternative would have been Federal Marshals. However they worked for the Attorney General which as a separate branch of the Federal government. The Treasury was under the Executive branch, the President, which kept it simpler. In the 19th Century Washington DC Police were also tapped for presidential guards & they still work with the Secret Service for presidential or executive security.

But really, all that is to keep the nut cases at bay. To prevent coups and other organized unpleasantness you dont need more than one USMC Major

Screen Shot 2021-03-17 at 8.42.12 PM.png
Carl,

The Department of Justice is under the Executive Branch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... of_Justice

Mike

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Re: Why does the USA seem to have no deployable Presidential Guard?

Post by rcocean » 22 Apr 2021 16:17

The USA has no deployable presidential guard because it would be too expensive. A guy in buffalo robes caused Congress and the President to deploy 25,000 NG to protect themselves. That's how many troops were needed per the experts. Keeping a whole division on alert would be too expensive. Not only that, but what if two guys with buffalo robes showed up? Then we'd need at least 50,000 troops, and as the speaker of house stated machine gun nests. And probably mortars, tanks, and landmines. So you can see why we rely on the NG.

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