Book or other source on US Navy spending in WW2?

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TheMarcksPlan
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Re: Book or other source on US Navy spending in WW2?

#31

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 14 Nov 2021, 00:32

OpanaPointer wrote:
13 Nov 2021, 22:47
Or we've read more than one book.
It's also funny that you pretend that because a single short post cites one book, you convince yourself that the poster has read only that book rather than that he's being economical with time spent here.

Even funnier is that nobody is willing even to say that Global Logistics and Strategy is wrong, let alone to show it. Nope, just a faith that there's rebuttal in a laundry list of mostly official histories even if you don't know and/or can't make that rebuttal.
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Re: Book or other source on US Navy spending in WW2?

#32

Post by OpanaPointer » 14 Nov 2021, 02:14

Perhaps we have better things to do that support your theory. Me, I've been retired since 1989, but I still have plenty of legs in the field. As for "official histories" I put a few on Hyperwar over the last 25 years.
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Re: Book or other source on US Navy spending in WW2?

#33

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 14 Nov 2021, 02:17

OpanaPointer wrote:
14 Nov 2021, 02:14
Perhaps we have better things to do that support your theory. Me, I've been retired since 1989, but I still have plenty of legs in the field. As for "official histories" I put a few on Hyperwar over the last 25 years.
That's great, I hope you're enjoying your retirement. Nonetheless, if you want to show I'm wrong you'll need an actual argument rather than a laundry list of official histories.

You're welcome to disagree (most do); you're not welcome to unreasoned deference to unreasoned stances. Neither are you entitled to claim - not without pushback - that I am simply ignorant. Anyone enjoying their retirement should also have better things to do than to randomly insult strangers while not even attempting to engage in reasoned dialogue.
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Re: Book or other source on US Navy spending in WW2?

#34

Post by Richard Anderson » 14 Nov 2021, 03:15

Yes, Koistinen is an excellent addition to the other works I cited, especially if you need help "understanding the economic underpinnings of WW2". Ditto the WPB history. They all too tell much of the tale of the waste, mismanagement, inter-agency bickering, and intra-service backbiting that complicated mobilization and procurement, which used to be a commonplace in wartime - given the indifference the US Government had to realistic mobilization planning - but sadly now is simply commonplace in the US Government.

However, if what you are looking for is evidence of a cabal of Navy admirals, Congresscritters, and grandees of American industry, finance, and politics deliberately manipulating American production in order to achieve the deaths of 10 million more Soviets and a delayed end to the war in Europe, then I suspect you are going to have to look elsewhere, possibly at some tinfoil conspiracy sites.

Somehow TMP has gotten the strange idea that I am trying to whitewash the nasty bits.
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Re: Book or other source on US Navy spending in WW2?

#35

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 14 Nov 2021, 06:26

Richard Anderson wrote:However, if what you are looking for is evidence of a cabal
Sigh.

I'm tempted to address whether I'm advocating a conspiracy theory but I suspect the explanation will be either twisted in bad faith, as with the accusation itself, or will be otherwise misunderstood.

So I'll pass for now. On indications of good faith I'll say more to anyone interested.
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Re: Book or other source on US Navy spending in WW2?

#36

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 14 Nov 2021, 13:38

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
13 Nov 2021, 03:17
Difficulty with reading comprehension?

Build more shells and tanks, fewer bombers and cruisers.
Looking again at the "Ammunition Crisis" suffered by US ground forces in North West Europe in late autumn 1944, I found that I had misremembered. I'd said that it was all to do with an argument between theater and War Department in Washington, but in fact it was more complicated than that. I found on re-reading the pertinent chapter in Ruppenthal's Vol. 2 that in fact there were actually multiple reasons for the ammunition crisis...

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA ... cs2-9.html

The calculated risk of crossing the Seine and pursuing the German army across France and Belgium with a recognised short-fall in logistic capability:
Ammunition supply prospects appeared favorable for a short time early in September, and the 12th Army Group, although increasingly skeptical of the Communications Zone's optimistic forecasts, made relatively liberal allocations to the armies in the hope of crashing through the West Wall on the momentum of the pursuit.
With my deep apologies, some mis-management by ComZ and 12 US Army Group:
The First Army ammunition officer showed [on 3 Oct 44] that the allocation was completely unrealistic, for the ammunition which the army had been authorized to expend did not exist in army depots and could not be obtained from the Communications Zone. Both the army group and the armies had long doubted the reliability of the Communications Zone's availability forecasts. [...] The October crisis had precipitated a long overdue reform in the system of control over ammunition issues and expenditures.
The well-known shortage of unloading facilities in Europe which left much needed ammunition afloat and using up valuable bottoms:
COMZ officials had recognized the seriousness of the unloading situation earlier, and in the last days of September the G-4 and ordnance officials had worked out a plan calling for the unloading of eight Liberties at a time, six of them at Cherbourg and the remainder at the beaches.
The contention with the War Department (which was what I had remembered):
Theater officials, while attempting to solve the immediate crisis by accelerating the unloading of ships, realized that the ammunition problem had another side. A more ominous shortage threatened, particularly in the heavier calibers and in mortar ammunition, because of inadequate shipments from the United States. [...] The SHAEF G-4 estimated that all ammunition then afloat would be ashore by 3 November, but that there still would be shortages in all categories at that time. On that date, in other words, the immediate cause of the deficit would shift from inadequate discharges to shortages in the theater. In a memorandum for record General Crawford noted that the theater had begun to warn the War Department of expected shortages in 81-mm. mortar and medium artillery ammunition as early as January 1944, and expressed the opinion that the War Department should by this time have taken action to increase production. Most exasperating of all from the point of view of the theater was the War Department's repeated reference to the fact that past expenditures had been below the day of supply rate, which ignored the theater's argument that past expenditures had been restricted and should not be used as a measure of future needs
Production shortages in the US, although apparently caused by decisions made within the War Department rather than in allocating priorities across the different forces (air, land and sea):
The War Department's challenging questions were inspired in part by its knowledge of production shortages in the United States and in part by the suspicion that the theater's requests were not fully justified. [...] The War Department's steps to boost the production of field artillery ammunition actually antedated the theater's most recent appeal by several months. In the fall of 1943 the War Department had ordered a cutback in production under the pressure of criticism from a Congressional committee because of excess accumulations of stocks, particularly in the North African theater. The excess in North Africa had resulted from the automatic shipment of ammunition on the basis of empirical day of supply data which failed to reflect the relatively inactive status of weapons over long periods of time. Early in 1944 the demands for ammunition rose precipitately as the result of the increased tempo of fighting on all fronts, and particularly as the result of unexpectedly high expenditures in Italy and ETOUSA's upward revisions of its requirements for the coming invasion. These developments led the Planning Division of the ASF, after a thorough survey of the ammunition situation, to predict a critical shortage in mortar and medium and heavy artillery ammunition by November.

On this forecast the War Department in April began allocating ammunition on the basis of the number of active weapons in each theater. Within another month, after additional studies and recommendations from the various ASF divisions, the War Department General Staff assigned the highest priority to the construction of additional production facilities for ammunition, and also for guns. The War Production Board immediately issued the required directives to make basic materials and machine tools available. Tooling up for ammunition production was a complicated precision job, however, the manufacture of the 155-mm. shell alone requiring about forty separate operations. Even experienced manufacturers ran into trouble on such jobs, as the lag in production of 8-inch ammunition had shown. Meanwhile the War Department pressed for the maximum output with existing facilities, making the necessary manpower deferments and even furloughing men from the service to work in munitions plants.
These measures were only beginning to be reflected in production increases when the theater made its urgent appeals in November
It's worth noting that as soon as the War Department identified a need for more production capacity for artillery ammunition, the "War Production Board immediately" set about making it available. Obviously that record of events may be hiding bitter debate and challenge, but I don't have a deep understanding of how the US War Production Board was organised or whether it left adequate records.

Do any of the more recent secondary sources challenge Ruppenthal's basic narrative?

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Re: Book or other source on US Navy spending in WW2?

#37

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 14 Nov 2021, 13:41

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
13 Nov 2021, 22:34
You hear something divergent from your views and you just know it's not right.
Actually, I didn't particularly hear anything that diverged from my "views" in your post, just surprised that you thought that snip from a secondary source was adequate "proof" of anything. :D

The Pownall Diaries are useful as they provide an interesting perspective from a senior British army office in the War Office during the run up to the outbreak of war in 1939. Certainly no lack of understanding that Britain would have to fight on land in support of its allies there! :idea:

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Re: Book or other source on US Navy spending in WW2?

#38

Post by OpanaPointer » 14 Nov 2021, 14:43

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
14 Nov 2021, 02:17
OpanaPointer wrote:
14 Nov 2021, 02:14
Perhaps we have better things to do that support your theory. Me, I've been retired since 1989, but I still have plenty of legs in the field. As for "official histories" I put a few on Hyperwar over the last 25 years.
That's great, I hope you're enjoying your retirement. Nonetheless, if you want to show I'm wrong you'll need an actual argument rather than a laundry list of official histories.

You're welcome to disagree (most do); you're not welcome to unreasoned deference to unreasoned stances. Neither are you entitled to claim - not without pushback - that I am simply ignorant. Anyone enjoying their retirement should also have better things to do than to randomly insult strangers while not even attempting to engage in reasoned dialogue.
I was hoping you'd up your game by reading more than one book. You're fighting over your weight here.
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Re: Book or other source on US Navy spending in WW2?

#39

Post by R Leonard » 14 Nov 2021, 16:38

Not to mention the small matter of a war in the Pacific, primarily naval, sea fights here and there, landing troops at this that or the other island, where all those "unnecessary" cruisers came in more than a bit handy.

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Re: Book or other source on US Navy spending in WW2?

#40

Post by OpanaPointer » 14 Nov 2021, 18:42

R Leonard wrote:
14 Nov 2021, 16:38
Not to mention the small matter of a war in the Pacific, primarily naval, sea fights here and there, landing troops at this that or the other island, where all those "unnecessary" cruisers came in more than a bit handy.
Yep, the heavy cruisers were supposed to protect the bird farms from enemy surface attack, at least until the carriers had beat feet for the horizon. SOP in the '39 Fleet Ex was for the carriers to operate on the unengaged side of the battleline with the CAs sharking around looking for threats.
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Re: Book or other source on US Navy spending in WW2?

#41

Post by Richard Anderson » 14 Nov 2021, 19:29

R Leonard wrote:
14 Nov 2021, 16:38
Not to mention the small matter of a war in the Pacific, primarily naval, sea fights here and there, landing troops at this that or the other island, where all those "unnecessary" cruisers came in more than a bit handy.

You obviously don't understand. Germany first. So only build landing ships and craft, while reducing the USAAF manpower by at least half, thus increasing the size of the AGF to 200 divisions and ramping up ground ammunition production.

Never mind:

The perceived requirement to stabilize the Pacific after the initial Japanese conquests;
The perceived requirement to build escort vessels and other ASW assets to defeat the U-Boote;
The near non-existent mobilization planning of the United States for anything other than a Continental defense;
The training requirements for a 200-division AGF precluded any deployments prior to mid 1943;
A reduced USAAF leaves the air over Europe contested, while the inability to deploy ground forces means no air bases in Italy, Sardinia, or Corsica to support operations against the southern Reich and Romania;
The underdeveloped tea leaf reading skills of the political and military leadership of the United States.
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Re: Book or other source on US Navy spending in WW2?

#42

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 14 Nov 2021, 19:41

Richard Anderson wrote:
14 Nov 2021, 19:29
The underdeveloped tea leaf reading skills of the political and military leadership of the United States.
Coffee grounds surely, let's leave the tea to the Brits. :thumbsup:

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Re: Book or other source on US Navy spending in WW2?

#43

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 14 Nov 2021, 21:22

OpanaPointer wrote:
13 Nov 2021, 22:47
Or we've read more than one book.
I seems to me problem was not be quantity on read books and history evidences but was be problem on purpose on read books and history evidences .

Some people was read books and history evidences for to understand history .

Some people was read books and history evidences for to find cherrys for to use on imagination storys and conspiracys .

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Re: Book or other source on US Navy spending in WW2?

#44

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 14 Nov 2021, 21:26

OpanaPointer wrote:
14 Nov 2021, 14:43
I was hoping you'd up your game by reading more than one book. You're fighting over your weight here.
Maybe he was have weight problem because cherrys was not be good on diet.

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Re: Book or other source on US Navy spending in WW2?

#45

Post by OpanaPointer » 14 Nov 2021, 22:02

Ружичасти Слон wrote:
14 Nov 2021, 21:22
OpanaPointer wrote:
13 Nov 2021, 22:47
Or we've read more than one book.
I seems to me problem was not be quantity on read books and history evidences but was be problem on purpose on read books and history evidences .

Some people was read books and history evidences for to understand history .

Some people was read books and history evidences for to find cherries for to use on imagination stories and conspiracies .
Yep, and any one book on subject should just be the start of research. I plowed through Rise and Fall of the Third Reich the year it came out in paperback. Left me with more questions than answers. Happily, a half century later and I still reading on the subject.
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