Stilwell; the worst US General?

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OpanaPointer
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Re: Stilwell; the worst US General?

Post by OpanaPointer » 21 Dec 2021 20:00

We really didn't want a former US Army Chief of Staff in the custody of the Kempeitai. MacArthur returned the favor by announcing what the US policy would be before actually speaking with FDR.
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Re: Stilwell; the worst US General?

Post by rcocean » 21 Dec 2021 22:12

The criticism of Tuchman is something I have wanted to say myself for a while.
It makes you wonder why he was held in such high regard in the first place... so there must be more to the story than this.
Tuchman boosted Stillwill as a way to denigrate The Nationalists. Her book isn't just "pro stillwell" its "pro mao". She was a good POPULAR Historian, but very biased.

As for Stillwell, he was a good friend of Marshall's, and an excellent combat commander. Because Marshall didn't like Hugh drum, and Stillwell knew Chinese, he sent stillwell to CBI. But Stillwell was the wrong man, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. It would've been much better if Stillwell, had been put in command of II Corps during the African invasion instead of Fredendall - he knew a lot about tactics, and everyone seems to agree he was a fine lower level commander.

So anyway, don't blame Stillwell. Blame Marshall. Even when Stillwell had shown he couldn't do the job, Marshall was still reluctant to get rid of him.

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Re: Stilwell; the worst US General?

Post by rcocean » 21 Dec 2021 22:23

Stilwell did everything he could to blame "the peanut" for everything and hustled the press so well that US public opinion turned against Chaing, largely thanks to Vinegar Joe and his fellow travelers.
The Chinese were our Allies, and the first job of any CBI commander was to get along with them. Seems pretty obvious to me. Ike used to sent any US officer who couldn't along with the Brits back to the USA. Bradley and Patton would complain about it, but that's what Ike had do. The first job of the ETO commander was to get along with the UK.

Stillwell didn't have a diplomatic bone in his body. And his entire strategy revolved around opening up the Burma Road - as you stated. Its not clear he even understood Mao was a Communist or what that meant. He had the crazy idea that Mao and the Nationalists were going to put aside their differences and be buddies for the rest of the Sino-Japanese war. That Wedemeyer had no problems with Chaing shows the problem wasn't the Nationalists 0 it was Stillwell.

As stated in the video, its hard to see who Stillwell ever got along with. Not the Brits, not the Chinese, and not the Guys in Merrill Maurauders - who ended up hating Stillwell's guts.

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Re: Stilwell; the worst US General?

Post by LineDoggie » 22 Dec 2021 03:14

OpanaPointer wrote:
21 Dec 2021 20:00
We really didn't want a former US Army Chief of Staff in the custody of the Kempeitai. MacArthur returned the favor by announcing what the US policy would be before actually speaking with FDR.
STILL not forced out by the enemy son

Change your goal posts all you want, but Rommel and MacA weren't in charge when those theaters were lost
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
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Re: Stilwell; the worst US General?

Post by OpanaPointer » 22 Dec 2021 13:19

LineDoggie wrote:
22 Dec 2021 03:14
OpanaPointer wrote:
21 Dec 2021 20:00
We really didn't want a former US Army Chief of Staff in the custody of the Kempeitai. MacArthur returned the favor by announcing what the US policy would be before actually speaking with FDR.
STILL not forced out by the enemy son

Change your goal posts all you want, but Rommel and MacA weren't in charge when those theaters were lost
I didn't say "forced out by the enemy" Mom.
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Re: Stilwell; the worst US General?

Post by LineDoggie » 22 Dec 2021 17:28

OpanaPointer wrote:
22 Dec 2021 13:19
LineDoggie wrote:
22 Dec 2021 03:14
OpanaPointer wrote:
21 Dec 2021 20:00
We really didn't want a former US Army Chief of Staff in the custody of the Kempeitai. MacArthur returned the favor by announcing what the US policy would be before actually speaking with FDR.
STILL not forced out by the enemy son

Change your goal posts all you want, but Rommel and MacA weren't in charge when those theaters were lost
I didn't say "forced out by the enemy" Mom.
your lucky im not your mom or you'd be sent to your room for your fibbing
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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Re: Stilwell; the worst US General?

Post by OpanaPointer » 22 Dec 2021 19:17

LineDoggie wrote:
22 Dec 2021 17:28
OpanaPointer wrote:
22 Dec 2021 13:19
LineDoggie wrote:
22 Dec 2021 03:14
OpanaPointer wrote:
21 Dec 2021 20:00
We really didn't want a former US Army Chief of Staff in the custody of the Kempeitai. MacArthur returned the favor by announcing what the US policy would be before actually speaking with FDR.
STILL not forced out by the enemy son

Change your goal posts all you want, but Rommel and MacA weren't in charge when those theaters were lost
I didn't say "forced out by the enemy" Mom.
your lucky im not your mom or you'd be sent to your room for your fibbing
Still down and let me read my posts to you.
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Takao
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Re: Stilwell; the worst US General?

Post by Takao » 22 Dec 2021 19:34

LineDoggie wrote:
22 Dec 2021 03:14
OpanaPointer wrote:
21 Dec 2021 20:00
We really didn't want a former US Army Chief of Staff in the custody of the Kempeitai. MacArthur returned the favor by announcing what the US policy would be before actually speaking with FDR.
STILL not forced out by the enemy son

Change your goal posts all you want, but Rommel and MacA weren't in charge when those theaters were lost
No, they were not...Both royally screwed their respective pooches, and were both in grave danger of being captured by their opponents. Thus, both were removed/escaped before the final blows came.

So, yes, both were forced out by the enemy.

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Re: Stilwell; the worst US General?

Post by Mark in Cleveland, Tn. » 23 Dec 2021 00:05

Just to reply to headline without reading posts, the major, spot on assessment post war consensus of the worst US General during WW2 was Mark Clark,and this opinion is shared by military historians with privy to opinions of actual Officers in the ETO post war comments.

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Re: Stilwell; the worst US General?

Post by OpanaPointer » 23 Dec 2021 00:49

Mark in Cleveland, Tn. wrote:
23 Dec 2021 00:05
Just to reply to headline without reading posts, the major, spot on assessment post war consensus of the worst US General during WW2 was Mark Clark,and this opinion is shared by military historians with privy to opinions of actual Officers in the ETO post war comments.
They never heard of Fredendall?
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Re: Stilwell; the worst US General?

Post by rcocean » 23 Dec 2021 03:16

Yes, there a good reason to think Mark Clark was the worst Army Commander, and he was an Army Group Commander, but that was near the war's end. Even when you factor in that Italy was the worst theater to fight in for an American Army Commander. No chance for any brilliant manuevers, Alexander trying to CYA, and just one damn Mountain after another.

I doubt Bradley or Hodges would've done any better. Buckner doesn't seem to have impressed anyone, but again his options were limited. He could have landed troops in the Japanese rear (which he thought was too risky) or just bull ahead. So he bulled ahead. I think Patch and Devers and the French Amry Commander did a fine job with 6th Army Group but you rarely hear about them.

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Re: Stilwell; the worst US General?

Post by AnchorSteam » 23 Dec 2021 10:21

rcocean wrote:
21 Dec 2021 22:23
Stilwell did everything he could to blame "the peanut" for everything and hustled the press so well that US public opinion turned against Chaing, largely thanks to Vinegar Joe and his fellow travelers.
The Chinese were our Allies, and the first job of any CBI commander was to get along with them. Seems pretty obvious to me. Ike used to sent any US officer who couldn't along with the Brits back to the USA. Bradley and Patton would complain about it, but that's what Ike had do. The first job of the ETO commander was to get along with the UK.

Stillwell didn't have a diplomatic bone in his body. And his entire strategy revolved around opening up the Burma Road - as you stated. Its not clear he even understood Mao was a Communist or what that meant. He had the crazy idea that Mao and the Nationalists were going to put aside their differences and be buddies for the rest of the Sino-Japanese war. That Wedemeyer had no problems with Chaing shows the problem wasn't the Nationalists 0 it was Stillwell.

As stated in the video, its hard to see who Stillwell ever got along with. Not the Brits, not the Chinese, and not the Guys in Merrill Maurauders - who ended up hating Stillwell's guts.
Well said.
Stilwell himself made an "enemies list" of sorts, and the Japanese turned out to be the least of them.
That does not indicate a very good frame of mind.

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Re: Stilwell; the worst US General?

Post by AnchorSteam » 23 Dec 2021 10:31

rcocean wrote:
23 Dec 2021 03:16
Yes, there a good reason to think Mark Clark was the worst Army Commander, and he was an Army Group Commander, but that was near the war's end. Even when you factor in that Italy was the worst theater to fight in for an American Army Commander. No chance for any brilliant manuevers, Alexander trying to CYA, and just one damn Mountain after another.

I doubt Bradley or Hodges would've done any better. Buckner doesn't seem to have impressed anyone, but again his options were limited. He could have landed troops in the Japanese rear (which he thought was too risky) or just bull ahead. So he bulled ahead. I think Patch and Devers and the French Amry Commander did a fine job with 6th Army Group but you rarely hear about them.
Ah yes, I forgot about Simon Bolivar Buckner, and I can't put what I really think of him in print.
However, he was not defeated nor did he have such a bad effect on the Allied war effort overall. In fact, he was the guy that ram-rodded the first Al-Can highway. Much of it had to be re-built (still does, that is horrendous real-estate) but he did it, and with troops he despised.
So.... no, not the worst in actual practice.

Credit where credit is due; once Buckner got hismself killed show-boating at the front, Stilwell took over just as Okinowa was being wrapped up.
Karma, perhaps, and Stilwell got to go home with an unequivocal win under his belt, at last.

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Re: Stilwell; the worst US General?

Post by AnchorSteam » 23 Dec 2021 10:37

Takao wrote:
22 Dec 2021 19:34
LineDoggie wrote:
22 Dec 2021 03:14
OpanaPointer wrote:
21 Dec 2021 20:00
We really didn't want a former US Army Chief of Staff in the custody of the Kempeitai. MacArthur returned the favor by announcing what the US policy would be before actually speaking with FDR.
STILL not forced out by the enemy son

Change your goal posts all you want, but Rommel and MacA weren't in charge when those theaters were lost
No, they were not...Both royally screwed their respective pooches, and were both in grave danger of being captured by their opponents. Thus, both were removed/escaped before the final blows came.

So, yes, both were forced out by the enemy.
Key difference; MasArthur went back and did to the Japanese what had been done to him. Bonus; Mac was out numbered by the Japanese defenders (and it wasn't a force of 90% barely-trained recruits with the IJA) AND he did it cleaner, suffereing amazingly few casualties in the process.
He didn't even have to blackmail the enemy commander into surrendering mass numbers of troops!

So, but that metric, MasArthur was a better General than Rommel.....
If anyone actually wants to go be that framework, that is. :milsmile:

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Re: Stilwell; the worst US General?

Post by rcocean » 23 Dec 2021 23:30

Key difference; MasArthur went back and did to the Japanese what had been done to him. Bonus; Mac was out numbered by the Japanese defenders (and it wasn't a force of 90% barely-trained recruits with the IJA) AND he did it cleaner, suffereing amazingly few casualties in the process. He didn't even have to blackmail the enemy commander into surrendering mass numbers of troops!
You'd think that if Big mac's defense of the Philippines was so bad, we'd have a record of him ignoring all the great Advice on HOW TO WIN from Marshall, Ike, Wainwright, Stimson, FDR, and General King. Yet, weirdly they all thought the Philippines were lost on December 7th, 1941.

In fact, I will give a "Genius Award" to anyone who can explain how any US General on December 7th 1941, could have defeated the japanese on Luzon and held Corriegidor and Bataan till the US Fleet arrived. Expected response:
well he couldn't have won, but...
- :lol:

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