DD Tanks

Discussions on all aspects of the United States of America during the Inter-War era and Second World War. Hosted by Carl Schwamberger.
Post Reply
User avatar
Lord Gort
Member
Posts: 2014
Joined: 07 Apr 2002, 15:44
Location: United Kingdom: The Land of Hope and Glory

DD Tanks

#1

Post by Lord Gort » 07 Jul 2003, 17:59

Can anyone give me as much information on these tanks as possible, anything and everything. They were used on D- Day and sank.




regards,

ChristopherPerrien
Member
Posts: 7051
Joined: 26 Dec 2002, 01:58
Location: Mississippi

#2

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 07 Jul 2003, 20:33

There was an excellent show on the discovery channel I think a short while back on a group of marine archaeologists who studied the sunk tanks off Normandy.

Basically the waves off Omaha were coming in at angle counter to where the tanks need to to land. The tankers really tried to get to where they were needed the most, this put them motoring almost sideways to the waves
and just about all of them got swamped due to screen collapse . They should have sailed with the waves and landed off course and then drove down the beach,. I don't know who's command ordered them to do this , you would have to look at the Battalion commander or higher.

This being said , in the panic and carnage of Omaha, the bravery of all these tankers was "above and beyond" in trying to reach their dying comrades on the beach. Obviously they had no real adverse sea training neither did their commanders.

Really the idea of a floating tank is dam sure a foriegn idea to most tankers, including me. So I can't fault them tankers for not being sailors, and the tenseness of the situation and need of the men on the beach cannot be denied.
Scientists survey WWII ships, tanks that sank off D-Day beaches

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


GRANDCAMP MAISY, France -- Fifty-seven years after the Allies landed at
Normandy and liberated Europe, a team of nautical archaeologists is surveying wreckage off the Omaha and Utah beaches in hopes of learning more about what happened on D-Day and its naval operations.

Members of Project Neptune 2K are using a remotely operated vehicle, or
ROV, to survey and photograph D-Day wrecks identified last summer with side-scanning sonar and magnetometers, which help locate wrecks by measuring magnetic fields.

Project leader Brett Phaneuf said that while the team has initially faced equipment problems, bad weather and poor underwater visibility because of plankton blooms, situations have improved, and researchers have photographed several D-Day wrecks since resuming work May 21.

"It has gone fantastic," he said. "We've had the typical weather and equipment blues, but now all things have come into alignment. We have increasing visibility and absolutely beautiful seas."

Using the ROV, researchers have photographed a landing craft-tank (LCT), which carried troops and equipment to shore, and five of the amphibious British-made Duplex Drive Tanks (DD tanks) that carried American troops. They found one tank heavily encrusted, overgrown with marine life and covered with a fishing net. Its guns were still partially elevated and facing forward in the travel position as when it was launched on D-Day.

On the other tank, researchers identified the remnants of the structure that was supposed to enable the tank to float. They also found the machine guns still in place on the front hull of the tank and the tank hatches open.

"It's hard to describe how exciting it was, how thrilling it was - after five years of preparation and fund raising - to finally get on the bottom and see these tanks," Phaneuf said.

Last summer, Phaneuf and his team identified six to eight Sherman tanks and more than two dozen World War II wrecks lying off the Normandy coast. Some of those wrecks are believed to be those of LCTs and a Higgins Boat, which ferried troops and tanks from larger offshore ships to the beaches.

The team also found several of the DD tanks. Many of these tanks, which were rigged to float, proved failures and sank as soon as they were released from ships, taking their crews down with them, Phaneuf said.

"It really takes you back to D-Day," he said. "It brings home the level of sacrifice people made here and the commitment they had to the work they were doing to liberate Europe."

By identifying the wrecks, Phaneuf said he hopes American and French officials will use the information to increase the policing and protecting of these historical sites.

This project will be featured on a D-Day anniversary edition of
Deadline Discovery airing on the Discovery Channel, 10-11 p.m. (ET/PT),
Wednesday, June 6.

This year's field season runs May through June. The Discovery Channel and the British Broadcasting Corp. are major sponsors of the research. Project Neptune 2K also is supported by the Texas Sea Grant College Program, Kongsberg-Simrad Corp. and Oceaneering International, Inc. of Morgan City, La. Researchers are working aboard the University of South Hampton's RV Bill Conway.

Project Neptune 2K is a project of the Institute of Nautical
Archaeology, which is headquartered at Texas A&M University.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


For more information contact:

Brett Phaneuf at [email protected],
Mark Evans, Texas Sea Grant, at (979) 862-3770, e-mail: [email protected] or Katherine Nelson, Discovery Channel, at (604) 899-2179, e-mail: [email protected].

Housed at Texas A&M University in College Station, the Texas Sea Grant
College Program is a partnership of university, government and industry, focusing on marine research, education and advisory service. The Sea Grant Program is a practical, broad-based effort to promote better understanding and use of marine resources through research, education, extension and information transfer.
06/01/01




AggieDaily
Office of University Relations
Texas A&M University
(979) 845-4641
Last edited by ChristopherPerrien on 09 Jul 2003, 00:08, edited 1 time in total.


ChristopherPerrien
Member
Posts: 7051
Joined: 26 Dec 2002, 01:58
Location: Mississippi

#3

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 07 Jul 2003, 20:54

Hey Gort, try this excellent DDtank link
http://www.kithobbyist.com/AFVInteriors/dd/dd1.html

User avatar
Aufklarung
Member
Posts: 5136
Joined: 17 Mar 2002, 05:27
Location: Canada

#4

Post by Aufklarung » 07 Jul 2003, 23:48

m'Lud
The concept for DD Shermans were a direct draw from the ideas invented by Austrian emigre and AFV designer Nicholas Straussler.

The DD Shermans were able to make 4 knots average speed or about 5 mph. The key to safe operation was calm seas which wasn't exactly the case on 06 June '44.

On D Day at Juno Beach, two squadrons from both the Fort Garry Horse and the 1st Hussars(Royal Canadian Armoured Corps) were equipped with DD Shermans V's(M4A4).

Training began in Dec '43 under great secrecy with DD Valentines at Great Yarmouth with underwater escape, erection and tearing down the screens, and practice swimming on the lake. Later, at Gosport, loading onto landing craft, launching from ramps, swimming and beach landings were practiced. Training continued at Stokes Bay, Lyme Bay, and a secret location near Fawley called Shangri-la until April '44.

On the day of the invasion there were a number of the Canadian DDs swamped when the pounding waves collapsed the struts supporting the screens. A and B sqns from the Hussars landed on Nan Green and Mike Greenbeaches at Courseulles-sur-Mer. Only 10 from A sqn were able to launch from about 5000 metres out. B sqn launched all 19 of its tanks. Most of the commanders called the turret crews out to stand on the hulls and help support the screens. 8 tanks were lost on the run in. 1 from a direct mortor hit, 1 from abandoned when the motor failed, 2 sank from flotation screen collapse, 3 when their LCT hit a mine, and 1 swamped from the bow wave of a rocket firing LCtT This last DD was recovered in 1970 by the Royal Canadian Dragoons and is now a monument in the town square at Courseulles.

One Km east the Fort Garrys assulted Nan White and Nan Red at Bernieres-sur-Mer and St Aubin-sur-Mer. Their DDs were brought close inshore and did a "wet wade" from about 1000 metres out with no immediate losses from swimming.

regards
A :)
Attachments
dd02.jpeg
from http://www.hobartmull.bravepages.com/hobart.html
dd02.jpeg (29.04 KiB) Viewed 4155 times
1H.jpg
1H.jpg (61.63 KiB) Viewed 4157 times
FGH.jpg
FGH.jpg (71.64 KiB) Viewed 4156 times

User avatar
Lord Gort
Member
Posts: 2014
Joined: 07 Apr 2002, 15:44
Location: United Kingdom: The Land of Hope and Glory

#5

Post by Lord Gort » 08 Jul 2003, 23:12

Thanks for all the info.

I wish I'd caught the programme on discovery! :D




regards,

User avatar
Korbius
Member
Posts: 1795
Joined: 01 Oct 2002, 00:53
Location: DC

#6

Post by Korbius » 09 Jul 2003, 19:55

There's a DD sherman also in the Utah beach museum which was pulled out from the bottom of the sea, along with 2 LVT alligators. It's a shame that the Alligator wasn't used, because probably it would have lowered the casualty numbers, and it could have been very effective just as in the cases of the amphibious assaults of the marines in the island hopping to Japan.

Image

User avatar
Aufklarung
Member
Posts: 5136
Joined: 17 Mar 2002, 05:27
Location: Canada

#7

Post by Aufklarung » 09 Jul 2003, 23:11

Korbius wrote:It's a shame that the Alligator wasn't used, because probably it would have lowered the casualty numbers
Greetings Friend Korbius
You mean as an APC, don't you? Because using an Alligator to replace the DD tanks would not have been a very good idea. They were only armoured against small arms and splinters and although some of the Pacific versions carried 75mm Howitzers, they would not have withstood the AT wpns in the Normandy beach defences. I don't think there were many Alligators (all types) available for the ETO anyway as priority went to the Island hopping campaigns in the Pacific. Not sure.
Let us not forget the "Deep Wading" Shermans. They were the ones with the two large intake extensions on the back deck. They had no propellors and were merely designed to wade ashore and not float.

regards
A :)

User avatar
Korbius
Member
Posts: 1795
Joined: 01 Oct 2002, 00:53
Location: DC

#8

Post by Korbius » 10 Jul 2003, 13:43

Greetings Aufklarung, you are certainly right, but I was thinking that it would have been better if the infantry came ashore with Alligators escorted with the DD Shermans of course, rather than just having the infantry come out of the LCPs or LCVs without some proper cover, so at least the Alligator could unload them after passing the open beach area.

User avatar
Tim Smith
Member
Posts: 6177
Joined: 19 Aug 2002, 13:15
Location: UK

#9

Post by Tim Smith » 05 Aug 2003, 15:26

The DD tanks were launched WAY too far out from the beach. With the sea conditions as they were the LCT's should have gone within at least 1000 meters of the beach, preferably 500 meters, not 5 kilometers. And the people driving the LCT's were sailors, so they should have known what to do even if their orders didn't allow for it.

User avatar
Aufklarung
Member
Posts: 5136
Joined: 17 Mar 2002, 05:27
Location: Canada

#10

Post by Aufklarung » 06 Aug 2003, 18:04

TS wrote:The DD tanks were launched WAY too far out from the beach. With the sea conditions as they were the LCT's should have gone within at least 1000 meters of the beach, preferably 500 meters, not 5 kilometers
Tim
I agree with you 100% but unfortunately alot of the local commanders decided to follow their orders to the letter and launch at the 5000m line. Not all tho' as at Juno Beach, the Fort Garry Horse Sqn Commanders took matters into their own hands and got in close. This can be compared for losses to the 1st Hussars and how they fared with a distant launch.
I have no idea what happened at Omaha beach WRT the DD tanks.

regards
A :)

Jon Sutton
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: 12 Apr 2003, 19:10
Location: Trier, Germany

The British DDs

#11

Post by Jon Sutton » 06 Aug 2003, 20:12

I believe that most of the British DD Shermans were launched much further in than the original orders specified. My father is an ex-4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards tanker and was the co-driver in a DD when the Regiment landed at Ver-sur Mer on D-Day morning. His was the first tank to leave the Tank Landing Craft and whilst on the ramp it was hit by an out-of-control Infantry Landing Craft which tore the skirt. It had to be launched to avoid blocking the other tanks and my father and the driver were soon sitting with water over their knees...as the tank left the ramp it briefly floated but as it leveled out the water surged back, the engine cut and they sank. However when resting on the seabed the top of the screen was still above the water-level. Had it launched successfully this would imply that there were only a few feet of water between the tracks and the seabed.

User avatar
Aufklarung
Member
Posts: 5136
Joined: 17 Mar 2002, 05:27
Location: Canada

#12

Post by Aufklarung » 14 Aug 2003, 17:25

Hi
Just a quick follow up on the Valentine DDs that I mentioned earlier. While looking for something else I found this site that mentions where you can scuba dive on a sunken DD Valentine. 8) Some pics as well.
http://www.jacksac.freeserve.co.uk/valentine_tanks.htm
Image

Also:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/s.few/clubweb/tank.html
Image

regards
A :)

ChristopherPerrien
Member
Posts: 7051
Joined: 26 Dec 2002, 01:58
Location: Mississippi

#13

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 14 Aug 2003, 18:13

Aufklarung wrote:
TS wrote:The DD tanks were launched WAY too far out from the beach. With the sea conditions as they were the LCT's should have gone within at least 1000 meters of the beach, preferably 500 meters, not 5 kilometers
Tim
I agree with you 100% but unfortunately alot of the local commanders decided to follow their orders to the letter and launch at the 5000m line. Not all tho' as at Juno Beach, the Fort Garry Horse Sqn Commanders took matters into their own hands and got in close. This can be compared for losses to the 1st Hussars and how they fared with a distant launch.
I have no idea what happened at Omaha beach WRT the DD tanks
.

regards
A :)
The Omaha Beach area got and gets much worse wave action than than the other landing Areas, Omaha is not sheltered as much by the coastline as the others. True the DD tanks at Omaha were launched further out
(I don't think it was 5 kilometers) but the Omaha beach landing was opposed, the other beaches while having a few moments of opposition were cake walks compared to Omaha, so I would gather enemy fire was the main cause of the DD tanks at Omaha being launched further out.

User avatar
Aufklarung
Member
Posts: 5136
Joined: 17 Mar 2002, 05:27
Location: Canada

#14

Post by Aufklarung » 15 Aug 2003, 00:18

but the Omaha beach landing was opposed, the other beaches while having a few moments of opposition were cake walks compared to Omaha,
8O
You do a grave injustice to the men who died at Juno, Sword, and Utah when you say obnoxious things like that. Tell the men that landed at Juno that it was a "Cake walk". :roll:

I would suggest that the losses at Omaha would be attributed for the most part to bad decisions and leadership, particularly in the 116 RCT.
The lack of American forethought in regard to acepting "Funnies", poor offshore Gunnery by "C" Force, USAAF concern for friendly casualties and releasing their loads too late, and bad choice of beach were more responsible for Omaha losses than the opposition compared to the other beaches. Omaha was relly just so Utah wouldn't be cut off.

A :)

User avatar
Lawrence Tandy
Member
Posts: 1738
Joined: 18 May 2002, 08:41
Location: B.C, Canada

#15

Post by Lawrence Tandy » 15 Aug 2003, 00:24

After Omaha, Juno beach was the most fiercly defended, and Canadians still made it further inland than any other force.

http://www.stormpages.com/junobeach/d_day.html

Quote:

Bagpipes played their eerie sound as the Royal Highland Regiment left the harbour in England. They played the pipes on the transports as they rocked up the shore. They bagpipes howled as the Black Watch hit Juno Beach The bagpipes gave a simple message to the Germans defending Juno beach: we are crazy, we are coming, and you are going to die.



After delays, and a night suffering form rocking boats, the ramps dropped and the Canadian's charged the beach. All Canadian assault teams had planed to land right after the tanks hit the shore. It would be nice if things went as planed. You were in a lucky assault team if you actually had tank support on the beach. In many cases the tanks never landed on the beach until after the Canadians had jumped the seawall and were engaged in street fights in the near by towns.



B Company of the Highland regiment land to find the fortifications destroyed by naval fire and were able to move off the beaches quickly and with few casualties. Other regiments of the assault force were not so lucky. The Regina regiment lost half of her fighting force before it even got to the beach. The Winnipeg assault teams found the German defenses intact and ready for an attack. The Winnipeg regiment suffered dearly for every step they took to get of the beaches. German defenders cut down B Company of the Winnipeg's to one officer and 25 men by the time they finally reached the Seawall (a company has about 150 men). One of the bravest acts was accomplished by a solider in a Winnipeg platoon, in a attempt to get off the beach. A pioneer platoon in the Winnipeg infantry was trapped behind barbed wire with no means to get through the wire. One Solider in that platoon threw himself on the barded wire so the men in the platoon could walk on his back and get to the safety of the seawall. The attack on Juno Beach is filled of stories of men crawling thought minefields and barded wire, under heavy fire so they could toss a couple grenades into pillboxes. Sergeant Sigie Johnstone of the Winnipeg regiment is quoted, "Very few publications ever get the truth of what our Winnipeg infantry faced and did."


In the first hour of the Assault on Juno beach the Canadian forces would suffer conditions and causality rates almost identical to what the Americans would suffer on Omaha beach. Once the Canadians cleared the seawall (about an hour after jumping off the transports) they would start to advance quickly inland and have a much easer time subduing the German defenses than the Americans at Omaha.




Fighting inland

Once the beaches were secure the Canadians started to steadily move inland. Each platoon was assigned sections to secure. Some of the platoons found little or no Germans in the area while others spent the entire day trying to liberate the towns along the beach. By 1200 the 3rd Canadian division was completely landed and using the momentum of the morning to try and push Germans back. The Winnipeg and Regina regiments along with tank support penetrated several kilometers inland and gained control of the bridges over the river Seulles.

The North Shore (New Brunswick regiment) spent the day in heavy street fighting trying to capture St Aubin. St Aubin was finally secured by the North Shore regiment by 1800. After an hour of street fights and silencing German guns Courseulles and Bernieres comes under allied control. Later that day the Highland regiment would push ahead of the Winnipeg regiment to capture Colombiers-sur-seulles.


A 1st Hussar Armored troop was the only unit in Normandy that had reached its objectives. It had pushed 15 km inland and crossed the Caen-Bayeaux highway. This troop had reached the day's objective but were forced to pull back because they had passed the supporting infantry. Without the infantry support the tanks would not have been able to defend against a German counter Attack.




Digging In



At the end of the day The Canadian troops dug in and prepared for a counter attack. A 4 to 7km gap separated the British on Sword beach and the Canadians on Juno. The next day the German panzer division that had kept the British on Sword beach busy would counter attack the Canadian and British forces through the gap.

At the end of the day the Canadian 3rd division was able to join up with the British forces on Gold beach. Also The Canadian would push farther inland on D-Day than any other army that landed on the Normandy shore. As John Keegan said, "At the end of the day its forward elements stood deeper into France than those of any other division." Stephen Ambrose concludes that statement with, "Insofar as the opposition the Canadians faced was stronger than at any other beach save Omaha, that was an accomplishment in which the whole nation could take considerable pride."



http://www.nt.net/~toby/ww2.html

Quote:

"D-Day
Before dawn on D-Day, 230 heavy bombers from RCAF No.6 Group pounded German shore batteries with 860 tons of bombs. And in the daylight hours, RCAF fighter squadrons flew top cover for the invasion beaches.
Fifty Canadian destroyers, frigates and corvettes assisted in covering the invasion, providing anti-submarine escort and bombarding shore targets.


On D-Day, 14,000 Canadians stormed ashore on Juno Beach and were the only force to capture all their initial objectives that day, at a cost of 1000 casualties, of which 350 were fatal."


LT

Post Reply

Return to “USA 1919-1945”