Was Truman an Anti-Semite?

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Caldric
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Post by Caldric » 16 Jul 2003 22:45

To start with your research and reading material is flawed. Your assumptions about Japan surrendering are incorrect and flawed. I will no go further into the subject because it is an argument around here and we were asked not to. But I will say you should go get a Library card and use it, did you get that Quote from the Peace Council website? :lol:


Yeah there is a unbiased group.

Do a search here on the forum and look up the long tiresome arguments about Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

And remember if you are ever in a position and want to start total war, think about it real hard the consequences could be devastating to you and your nation.

Here is a great start for you, not from ACTIVIST but from Educators and Historians. You sound like one of those political correct activists yourself, who will change history to make a political statement.


Click!
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/abomb/mp10.htm

Let me let you in on a little secret about the 1st half of the 20th Century; Most people were racist. Not just Truman but MOST people. So when you go on your witch-hunts think about that and also remember you would also most likely be a racist in those days towards someone. The way the world was, not fair, not honest, not humane just fact.

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hauptmannn
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turman

Post by hauptmannn » 17 Jul 2003 11:21

I am disapointed old fighter that your are now reduced to hurling accusations about but are unable to make ONE intelligent counter arguement in responce to the facts I posted.

You have convinced me that I was right so I thank you profoundly for your last post.

It is interesting that you consider a man who is anti-black, anti-semitic to be alright as well as the mass murder of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of innocent men, women and children.

By your logic, everyone did it so it is understandable.

Do you think the Holocaust was accpetable simply because most Germans backed Hitler?????

Don't you have the ability to understand that some people have principles.
Just cause the majority went along with persecution does not mean that some people did not help and hide Jews. The majority of a society can always go along with what their rulers say but there are always people who have the ability to THINK independently and ACT decently. Just because everyone else is racist does not mean you have to be racist as well.

Here are some facts about the man Truman you defend:

Truman was racist against Chinese people

He was prejudiced against Black people

He believed all people were more or less equal as long as they were NOT black

Truman called Italians wops

Truman was anti-semitic

He sought to become a Klansman

From http://reformed-theology.org/jbs/html/b ... igotry.htm:

Active Klansman or not, Harry Truman's nearly lifelong record of personal racism is documented by his own published and unpublished letters, oral histories, and other documents on file at the Truman Library in Independence, Missouri. Dr. William Leuchtenburg, president of the American Historical Association and a professor at the University of North Carolina, is writing a book about our 33rd president. During his research, Leuchtenburg found that in 1911 Truman (who was 27) wrote to his future wife, Bess: "I think one man is just as good as another so long as he's honest and decent and not a nigger or a Chinaman. Uncle Will [probably Wfiliam Yount, the brother of Truman's mother] says that the Lord made a white man from dust, a nigger from mud, then He threw up what was left and it came down a Chinaman."

Truman continued: " am strongly of the opinion Negroes ought to be in Africa, yellow men in Asia and white men in Europe and America."


If you can really understand this mentality good for you. If you are a closet Klansman or an anti-semite I can understand your arguements but not if you claim to be a decent human being. By defending a man on his racism you are only burning yourself more.

I would not argue if someone shows a specific good act that Truman did but defending his racism???

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Post by Caldric » 17 Jul 2003 18:27

Well see you are emotional and irrational so it is impossible to discuss the issue with someone who makes such statements as this:
It is interesting that you consider a man who is anti-black, anti-semitic to be alright as well as the mass murder of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of innocent men, women and children.
You have already been shown that he did much more then many presidents for civil rights, but you ignore it. You have pre-concieved notions and use slanted work on the issue. There is no discussing with someone that has blinders on.
By your logic, everyone did it so it is understandable.


It is not logic it is fact.


Yes and you are right I am a racist and Anti-Semite because I disagree. Everyday I understand more the mentality of men such as Scott Smith, to disagree is to be labeled racist or Jew hater.

Such remarks make you look pretty silly.

You ask what he did that might change your opinion, I do not think that is possible but here you go:
EXECUTIVE ORDER 9981

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Establishing the President's Committee on Equality of Treatment and Opportunity In the Armed Forces.
WHEREAS it is essential that there be maintained in the armed services of the United States the highest standards of democracy, with equality of treatment and opportunity for all those who serve in our country's defense:

NOW THEREFORE, by virtue of the authority vested in me as President of the United States, by the Constitution and the statutes of the United States, and as Commander in Chief of the armed services, it is hereby ordered as follows:

1. It is hereby declared to be the policy of the President that there shall be equality of treatment and opportunity for all persons in the armed services without regard to race, color, religion or national origin. This policy shall be put into effect as rapidly as possible, having due regard to the time required to effectuate any necessary changes without impairing efficiency or morale.

2. There shall be created in the National Military Establishment an advisory committee to be known as the President's Committee on Equality of Treatment and Opportunity in the Armed Services, which shall be composed of seven members to be designated by the President.

3. The Committee is authorized on behalf of the President to examine into the rules, procedures and practices of the Armed Services in order to determine in what respect such rules, procedures and practices may be altered or improved with a view to carrying out the policy of this order. The Committee shall confer and advise the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of the Army, the Secretary of the Navy, and the Secretary of the Air Force, and shall make such recommendations to the President and to said Secretaries as in the judgment of the Committee will effectuate the policy hereof.

4. All executive departments and agencies of the Federal Government are authorized and directed to cooperate with the Committee in its work, and to furnish the Committee such information or the services of such persons as the Committee may require in the performance of its duties.

5. When requested by the Committee to do so, persons in the armed services or in any of the executive departments and agencies of the Federal Governemt shall testify before the Committee and shall make available for use of the Committee such documents and other information as the Committee may require.

6. The Committee shall continue to exist until such time as the President shall terminate its existence by Executive order.

Harry Truman

The White House
July 26, 1948

Also on the Nation of Israel:
Image

President Truman meeting on May 8, 1951 with Prime Minister David Ben Gurion of Israel and Abba Eban. They presented the menora as a token of esteem for President Truman's timely recognition of the State of Israel on May 14, 1948.
While President Franklin D. Roosevelt appeared to be sympathetic to the Jewish cause, his assurances to the Arabs that the United States would not intervene without consulting both parties caused public uncertainty about his position. When President Harry S. Truman took office, he made clear that his sympathies were with the Jews and accepted the Balfour Declaration, explaining that it was in keeping with former President Woodrow Wilson's principle of "self determination." Truman initiated several studies of the Palestine situation that supported his belief that, as a result of the Holocaust, Jews were oppressed and also in need of a homeland.
http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlesto ... israel.htm


A man should be judged by his actions, not dirt dug up when he was 20 years old by a less then reliable source. Beware of those with wild accusations, because they are most likely just that.

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Takao
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Post by Takao » 17 Jul 2003 18:39

Well, I must admit that this thread has given me a few good laughs.

The original post made it seem as this was "new" news, but anyone who has done some research on Harry S. Truman knows it is false. Truman had a favorable opinion towards the Jewish people. However, in 1946-47, he succumbed to the pressure put upon him by the Jewish & Zionist people to support the creation of Israel. Truman was not known as a supporter of "special interest" groups, and I believe the badgering of the Zionists irritated the hell out of him.

And Truman being the mass murderer of hundreds of thousands of people? Oh do tell, do tell. He's several million under par when compared to several leaders of other countries.

As for "Here are some facts about the man Truman you defend:"
"Truman was racist against Chinese people"
You going to need much more than a few off-the-cuff remarks if you expect to be convincing.

"He was prejudiced against Black people"
Which is why he so often spoke out in favor of civil rights.

"He believed all people were more or less equal as long as they were NOT black"
Again see above.

"Truman called Italians wops"
So in you opinion helicopters must bee the largest offender of Italians everywhere. Seeing as the do nothing but go wop-wop-wop-wop-wop.

"Truman was anti-semitic"
You have nere proven this as FACT. For every quote who have I could give you three or four to support the exact opposite.

"He sought to become a Klansman"
I'll go you one better on the source you cited, as they seem to put it very ambigiously. David McCullough clearly states that Truman was convinced to join the KKK by his friend and supporter Edgar Hinde. Hinde convinced Truman that it would be "good politics' to join, because Truman's two opponents were in the Klan(1922 campaign for Judge). When Truman was told he could not hire catholics after he was elected, Truman immediatly ended the meeting and left without joining the Klan. From that time on, Truman would speak out against the Klan.

I suggest some reading material for you, so you may better understand Harry S. Truman.

"Truman", by David S. McCullough
"Plain Speaking - an Oral Biography of Harry S. Truman", by Merle Miller
"Off The Record - Te Private Papers of Harry S. Truman", edited by Robert H. Ferrell
"Harry S. Truman", by Margaret Truman
"Memiors"(2 volumes - Year of Decisions and Years of Trial and Hope),by Harry S. Truman

Since everyone seems to love quotes, I'll leave you to ponder this one
from Harry S. Truman (diary, June 1 1945)
"The Jews claim God Almighty picked'em out for special privilege. Well I'm sure He had better judgement. Fact is I never thought God picked any favorites. It is my studied opinion that any race, creed or color can be God's favorites if they act the part - and very few of 'em can do that."

Caldric
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Post by Caldric » 17 Jul 2003 18:46

I think one of the major problems with all of this is people are trying to force their modern Political Correctness upon a period in time where such things were not known.

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hauptmannn
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Re: Take cover! Hauptmannn on the offensive…

Post by hauptmannn » 17 Jul 2003 19:01

remember
hauptmannn wrote: Truman admitted in his words to: ‘a willingness under pressure to sacrifice principle for ambition’. 226.
Last edited by hauptmannn on 18 Jul 2003 14:17, edited 2 times in total.

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hauptmannn
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takao

Post by hauptmannn » 17 Jul 2003 19:15

Takao,

I think its profoundly sad that in this day and age you defend a man who made anti-semitic, anti-chinese, anti-black, anti-Italian statements and who was responsible for the killing of innocent men, women and children. I find your description of the 'Jewish & Zionist people' as a "special interest" group very interesting. Don't play with fire.

Truman: "I think one man is just as good as another so long as he's honest and decent and not a nigger or a Chinaman".

If this is not racism, then what is racism according to you???????

Perhaps such an attitude is acceptable for you; it ain't for most people.

I have not invented these accusations or quotes they are available in abundance.

You imply that Truman was not racist because he quit the Klan over the exclusion of Catholics. For your information, Catholics are a religion not a race.

The racial exclusion of blacks and Jews did not prevent him from applying to become a Klansman. Surely your are not defending Truman in his wanna be Klansman phase?????

It's beyond me how you however defend a man who said the following just after the Holocaust:

Truman: "The Jews, I find are very, very selfish," Truman wrote on July 21, 1947. "They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as DP (Displaced Persons) as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the under dog."[/b]


Profoundly sad. Worse is that discussing this amuses you. It's not even sad. Its pathetic.

Your 'joke' comparing Italians and helicopters is NOT funny.

I do not think I wish to continue with this tread for much longer because frankly it is becoming very distasteful. I will however respond with greater vigor if I am attacked again for fighting racism, racists and those that defend them.

Remember, racism ultimately leads to lynching and the gas chamber. It's no laughing matter.
Last edited by hauptmannn on 17 Jul 2003 21:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Takao
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Post by Takao » 17 Jul 2003 21:30

Hauptmann,

I find it very easy to defend Truman, and I feel he was one of the best presidents we had. The only thing I can fault him on is his failure to maintain the United States as a strong military power. It was this fault that would cost us tens of thousands of lives in Korea. However, I can see it from his POV. After all we had just fought a world war and everyone just wanted to get back into civilian life.

As for playing with fire, let me "flick my bic." The Jewish & Zionist peoples were lobbying for the creation of Israel. Like any other lobbiest group/s, that makes their interests "special". Therefore, I called them what they were, a "special interest" group. If they had not lobbied for the creation of Israel, I would NOT have called them a "special interest" group. Do you deny that Jews and Zionist lobbied the White House/Truman for the creation of Israel?

I have a similar quote for you (from a letter to Mrs. Roosevelt, 1947):
"The action of some of our United States Zionists will eventually prejudice everyone against what they are trying to get done. I fear very much that the Jews are like all underdogs. When they get on top they are just as intolerant and as cruel as the people were to them when they were underneath. I regret this situation very much because my sympathy has always been on their side."

What amuses me is the narrow and constricted viewpoints of some people, and their inability to look at a topic from several different perspectives.

p.p.s The helicopters were no "joke", but a sarcastic comment. But I guess sarcasim is lost on you.

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hauptmannn
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Truman

Post by hauptmannn » 17 Jul 2003 21:53

This is becoming serious.

You persist in calling "The Jewish & Zionist peoples" a "special interest" group'.

You seem to be following in the racist anti-semitic footsteps of Truman by approvingly quoting this passage to back up your case:

(to Mrs. Roosevelt, 1947):
"...I fear very much that the Jews are like all underdogs. When they get on top they are just as intolerant and as cruel as the people were to them when they were underneath".

Jews DO NOT need sympathy from someone who defends an anti-semite.
Certainly not from someone who cites a passage like this to bolster his argument.
Last edited by hauptmannn on 18 Jul 2003 16:02, edited 1 time in total.

Caldric
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Re: Truman

Post by Caldric » 17 Jul 2003 22:28

hauptmannn wrote:This is becoming serious.

You persist in calling "The Jewish & Zionist peoples" a "special interest" group'.

You seem to be following in the racist anti-semitic footsteps of Truman by approvingly quoting this passage to back up your case:

(Mrs. Roosevelt, 1947):
"...I fear very much that the Jews are like all underdogs. When they get on top they are just as intolerant and as cruel as the people were to them when they were underneath".

Jews DO NOT need sympathy from someone who defends an anti-semite.
Certainly not from someone who cites a passage like this to bolster his argument.
Well that is funny they damn sure needed Truman in 1948 and the United States. If Roosevelt would have been alive there would not have been such a thing.

I can not believe you are practically calling Takao a anti-Semite because he gave you historical facts. The Jews still have "Special Interest" groups in the United States. You know nothing about him nor this part of history.

Do you think Jewish people are above criticism? And if someones does that they are Anti-Semite?

I would have followed Truman to hell and back, he was that important to the transition of WWII.

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Post by David Thompson » 18 Jul 2003 02:09

To everyone -- Please restrict the discussion to President Truman, and avoid making personal comments about other posters.

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Post by FM Rommel » 18 Jul 2003 02:22

From what I have gathered from talking to older generations and reading from other materials is that what is Politcally Correct now was considered Kosher then.

Just my thoughts

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Takao
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Post by Takao » 18 Jul 2003 07:31

Hauptmann,

"This is becoming serious."
Finally, I was wondering when it would. However, you could'a fooled me.

So now I'm a racist anti-semite. Cool, I can't wait to tell my Jewish friends, they will all get a big laugh! You don't know me at all, yet you have slapped me with a lable. So, why should I believe you when you say Truman is anti-whatever?

And what is the meaning of this blurb?
Jews DO NOT need sympathy from someone who defends an anti-semite. Certainly not from someone who cites a passage like this to bolster his argument.
What anti-semite was Truman defending? What argument was Truman bolstering? If you are referring to "I regret this situation very much because my sympathy has always been on their side." That line is Truman's and not mine. Hence the "s denoting that it is a quote.

Truman an anti-semite, I say no!
If he was then why did he have as a best friend and business partner a Jewish man? His name was Eddie Jacobson and they remained close friends throughout Jacobson's lifetime.
If Truman was an anti-semite, then why in 1946 did he call for the admission of 100,000 Jews into Palestine? And why was the United States the first nation officially recognize the nation of Israel?

Truman racist towards African-Americans? No!
Truman's actions during his presidency did much to advance the cause of Civil Rights. Truman called for a Federal law against lynching, a law against poll taxes, establishment of Fair Employment Practices Commission, an end to discrimination in interstate travel by bus, train, or airplane, and he called for desgregation of the military. This does not sound like a racist to me.

Truman racist towards Italian-Americans??????
"Truman called Italians wops." Where do I begin to tear this one apart?
Hauptmann, since you favor quotes so much, please provide me with a few.
You imply that Truman was not racist because he quit the Klan over the exclusion of Catholics. For your information, Catholics are a religion not a race.
I imply NOTHING!, your source "The White Separatist Movement in the United States: White Power, White Pride!" by Dobratz and Shanks-Meile, is ambigious on such a matter. Here is the paragraph in FULL, in case you don't have or have not read the source you cited.
President Truman may have joined or nearly joined the Klan in the early 1920s. In a supposed meeting with a Klan organizer, Truman was asked to state that he wouldn't hire Catholics if elected. Truman refused and apparently his $10 initiation fee was returned. McCullough(1992:,165) explained Truman's original decision to join;..."

The source is yours and you act as if you have not even read it! What your source used was McCullough's explanation of Truman's reason to join. However, they did not include was McCullough's information as to how the meeting transpired. If you do not believe me then acquire a copy of "Truman" by David S. McCullough, published Touchstone in 1993, ISBN 0-671-86920-5. Specifically read pages 164-165.
So please do not lecture me on the differences between religion and race. Go lecture Dobratz and Shanks-Meile on those differences.
The racial exclusion of blacks and Jews did not prevent him from applying to become a Klansman. Surely your are not defending Truman in his wanna be Klansman phase?????
No, McCullough does that for me. Now, be sure you are not contradicting yourself. I did not think racists went through phases? I thought they were hardcore through and through. If Truman was such a racist as you make him out to be, then by all rights Truman should have joined the Klan and not turned them down. I mean what self-respecting racist would let his feelings on catholics stop him from joining the Klan? Especially a hardcore rabid racist such as Truman.

As for:
It's beyond me how you however defend a man who said the following just after the Holocaust:

Truman: "The Jews, I find are very, very selfish," Truman wrote on July 21, 1947. "They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as DP (Displaced Persons) as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the under dog.
It seems very prohetic if you ask me. Ask an Palestinian Arab for his views on the Israelis.

Oh well, label me an anti-semite if it makes you feel better. It does not matter much to me because I simply view it as a Nazi slapping a "Star of David" label on a Jew.

Good night Herr Hauptmann,
I look forward to reading your next post.

p.s. I do suggest picking up some of the books on Truman, I do think you would enjoy them. It would give you much more insight into the man then a few abstract quotes.

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hauptmannn
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T

Post by hauptmannn » 18 Jul 2003 16:01

Withheld pending negociations.
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Caldric
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Post by Caldric » 18 Jul 2003 17:03

Hauptmann,

Why is it you label anyone to critise jews as anti-Semite?

"The Jews, I find are very, very selfish". "They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as DP (Displaced Persons) as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the under dog.


I do believe this was the time when Jews were pressuring the United States to assist in violently creating them a homeland. This would displace the Arabs that were already there, maybe they were being selfish and did not have any concern for who got hurt as long as they got their land? Maybe he was just pissed off? Had Stalin playing for keeps in Europe which looked like it could be war any day, had Indutrial Giants in the United States you are trying to put back into their place, you have 30 special interest groups badgering you day and night.

Truman was much more complicated then your simple-minded sources make him out to be. They would have us believe he was a mindless raving anti-everything. One thing is fact, he was anti-Communist and anti-Stalinist that is good enough for me.

Only Truman had the spine to take on Stalin and at the same time take on radical people at home to desegregate the military and many Federal services. Do you think that was an easy task?

When Truman left office he did not have the money to buy a 20 million-dollar penthouse in New York City either, he left with what he went in with basically his clothes. You judge a man that you know nothing about.

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