Is this a WW II military knife?

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Thorsten
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Is this a WW II military knife?

#1

Post by Thorsten » 14 Aug 2003, 12:05

Hello,

yesterday I found this item at a hang 5 meter below a German foxhole.

http://520083239907-0001.bei.t-online.d ... messer.jpg

The disc at the bottom carries an inscription which is not readable any more. Following picture shows the remains.

http://520083239907-0001.bei.t-online.d ... chrift.jpg

Is this a WW II military knife?

Bye,
Thorsten

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Siegfried Wilhelm
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#2

Post by Siegfried Wilhelm » 14 Aug 2003, 16:18

Yes, it is most definitely a WWII military knife.
It is a very classic US military knife commonly known as a Ka-Bar knife because that was the most popular (but not the only) company that made them.
The part you think may be an inscription is not. It is the tang of the blade extending through the pommel cap as it does on all of these. The markings would be found on the recasso of the blade--the small flat part right next to the handle.
A nice find!

I hope you are preserving your finds and not letting them deteriate after digging them. Removing them from the ground is very hard on an artifact. The knife for instance has a stacked leather disk handle and will quickly shrink and may fall apart after excavation.

SW~


Thorsten
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#3

Post by Thorsten » 14 Aug 2003, 17:14

Hello Siegfried Wilhelm,

these are fantastic news! Actually, when I finished searching yesterday evening with all bones aching from running up and down the hills and swinging the detector all day long I was a bit disappointed and considered not to return. It semt I was unable to make an outstanding find. How wrong I was!

No wonder I was unable to decipher the 'inscription' at the back. :)

Restauration and preservation of my finds are of fundamental importance to me. Considerable effort is invested in the better finds like this knife.

Relics that consist exclusively of iron are cleaned and then put into a bath of molten paraffin. The water contained in the relic evaporates and the relic and its tiny cracks are sealed by the paraffin so future corrosion is inhibited (at least slowed down tremendously).

Concerning organic materials like wood and leather I use a German weapon oil named 'Ballistol'. It is a standard brand around for many decades. Leather is even more sensitive than wood and will deteriorate very quickly after recovery if untreated. If treated with ballistol it absorbs the oil and becomes smooth and durable again. This process is repeated several times. I treated the handle of the knife this morning before I wrote this post.

Hope this answered your questions concerning the treatment of my finds.

Bye,
Thorsten

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Siegfried Wilhelm
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#4

Post by Siegfried Wilhelm » 15 Aug 2003, 16:29

Hi,
I'm glad you're happy with that find! It is indeed what Americans consider the classic WWII knife! And is a desireable find even here in the US...but to have one found from use in a combat area is a true find!

The reason I am so particular about people who dig things preserving what they find is that I am an Archaeological Conservator for my job (mostly underwater work) and as such I see much stuff that has been excavated...and know how much an artifact can deteriorate post excavation.
What you are doing sounds fine for the short term, keeping the air away from the unstable metal...but just realize that there will be microscopic flaws in the pariffin--one cannot help it--and sooner or later the corrosion will start underneath the wax. It is generally best to remove most or all of the corrosion before the coating. We here in the lab usually use electrolysis and then acrylic, although there are other ways.

I am glad to see you are a consciencious digger/hunter. I wish there were more like you. And I am very interested to hear about the neat things you find there.
While I don't hunt myself (can't, because of my job--conflict of interest) I am fascinated with the things found in Germany from the war and if I still lived there I probably would start. The one kind of Third Reich thing that we find here is from the several sunken U-Boats off the coast here. Regretfully though, they are about picked clean now.

Good luck with your hunting and tell us more about what you find.

SW~

Thorsten
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Iron cleaning

#5

Post by Thorsten » 15 Aug 2003, 17:04

Hello Siegfried Wilhelm,

iron artefacts are certainly a tricky issue. Of course unwanted oxyde layers have to be removed before the item is sealed.

According to my experience electrolysis is good if you want to lay bare the metal core. The method is simple, does not require much knowledge of the shape of the object and does not take much time. Due to these advantages I use it for the not-so-important pieces I like to keep.

Electrolysis might also be ok for WW II relics but if the object is several hundred years old things are different. The original surface of the item is now embedded in the oxyde layers. If you use electrolysis on such an item you will lose this surface.

For this reason the older, smaller, and rarer objects are cleaned by mechanical means though this is dirty and time consuming. A small drilling machine like Proxxon or Dremel can be used with steel brushes to removed to red-brown rust and leave just the black-blue oxydes which are part of the original surface. In the European museums they use small glas balls accelerated by an air stream to remove the last layer.

Another advantage of mechanical cleaning is that you can control at all spots how much you remove. Some spots require less removal than others. Electrolysis or acids in contrast are global means of cleaning that cannot be finetuned.

The optical apperance of mechanically cleaned items is different to those cleaned by electrolysis. Mechanical cleaning leads to a much smoother surface. Many people prefer it. In our museums electrolysis was used 40 years ago but now not any more.

Concerning the paraffin conservation you are probably right that tiny cracks will force you to repeat the sealment after several years. Now my oldest artefacts are three years old and show no sign of corrosion yet. This might be due to the fact that all water was removed from the relic during the paraffin bath. People who do not use such a bath dry their relics in an oven before they are sealed.

I use to store small and rare iron finds in my fridge until its time to clean them and seal them. Corrosion comes to a standstill at -18 degrees celsius. Currently there is a bent arrow head and a strange small knife.

Cleaning and restauration is a vast field. There are enough topics to fill several threads... :)

Bye,
Thorsten

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cannon
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#6

Post by cannon » 15 Sep 2003, 04:49

Nice US K-Bar combat knife, not bad condition all considering.

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