Did the 82nd Airborne Division encounter any death camps?

[Beppo Schmidt]

If so, when, and what was the 101st's official reaction? thanks.

[michael mills]

Only the ones they trained in. Please see your other thread.

[Cantankerous]

The 82nd Airborne Division overran Wöbbelin, a subcamp of the Neuengamme concentration camp, in early May 1945, and they were aghast to see bodies of dead people at Wöbbelin.

Links:
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... e-division
https://www.asomf.org/the-role-the-82d- ... holocaust/
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... e-division

[Carl Schwamberger]

Many US formations encountered death camps or others of all sorts. My father went into Germany as a air liaison officer in 1st Army. February-April 1945. When he was released back to his air force unit in late April he hitched a ride on a convoy of empty supply trucks heading back to France. The convoy commander also took on a load of French guest workers & other nationalities trying to get out of Germany. The French described to him how in the closing months they lost all their guest worker privileges, were taken over by the military and worked under brutal conditions. The Poles, Russians and other easterners were worse in terms of malnourished and diseased. He said he did not eat much on tat ride. The others needed its lot worse. He pointed out how the movies or documentaries show masses of German PoW march west along the highways, but he described masses of French and others also walking west, not bothering to wait on the transportation being organized for them.

[hucks216]

If so, when, and what was the 101st's official reaction? thanks.

The short answer is no western Allied force encountered death camps. All the death camps were located in the east. What the western Allies encountered were Concentration and work camps.

[Carl Schwamberger]

If so, when, and what was the 101st's official reaction? thanks.

The short answer is no western Allied force encountered death camps. All the death camps were located in the east. What the western Allies encountered were Concentration and work camps.

Work camps mostly, tho by the winter of 1945 the distinction was rapidly breaking down. My father described how the regiment he was attached to took a large group of Germans prisoner when occupying some city or other. They found that several hundred laborers had been shot at the last minute by their guards when the order to surrender came. He told be 'Those boys were pretty rough with them.' Which in my fathers understated way meant the suspected guards were shot by the GIs. He could not identify the laborers killed other than they were not wearing blue coveralls like the French or Belgian guest workers.

[Empiricist]

If so, when, and what was the 101st's official reaction? thanks.

The short answer is no western Allied force encountered death camps. All the death camps were located in the east. What the western Allies encountered were Concentration and work camps.

It's not true.

The US 90th ID encountered Flossenbürg Concentration Camp (established May 4th, 1938) and saw there macabre "Christmas tree decorations" in the form of dismembered corpses of the US paras from Normandy hanging on the trees. I do not want to write what happened next.

The same goes for the US 45th ID which liberated Dachau Concentration Camp.

The same goes for the US 6th Armored Division of Patton’s Third Army -- they liberated Buchenwald Concentration Camp.

Below: Flossenbürg Concentration Camp

[Empiricist]

If so, when, and what was the 101st's official reaction? thanks.

The US 82nd Abn liberated Wöbbelin Concentration Camp.

The US 101st Abn and US 12th Armored Division liberated Kaufering IV Concentration Camp.

Below: 82nd Abn in Wöbbelin Concentration Camp

[Empiricist]

Nazi concentration camps were liberated also by the 12th, 14th, and 20th Armored Divisions, and the 4th, 8th, 71st, 89th, 99th, and 104th Infantry Divisions.

A total of 36 US divisions liberated concentration camps during World War II.

[hucks216]

If so, when, and what was the 101st's official reaction? thanks.

The short answer is no western Allied force encountered death camps. All the death camps were located in the east. What the western Allies encountered were Concentration and work camps.

It's not true.

The US 90th ID encountered Flossenbürg Concentration Camp (established May 4th, 1938) and saw there macabre "Christmas tree decorations" in the form of dismembered corpses of the US paras from Normandy hanging on the trees. I do not want to write what happened next.

The same goes for the US 45th ID which liberated Dachau Concentration Camp.

The same goes for the US 6th Armored Division of Patton’s Third Army -- they liberated Buchenwald Concentration Camp.

Below: Flossenbürg Concentration Camp

Yes, there was untold misery and deaths in all the concentration camps that were set up but strictly speaking they were all concentration and labour camps. The vernichtungslager were all in the east - Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, Chelmno, Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Arguing semantics for the 1945 periods is kind of a pointless exercise. Yes technically the US Army only liberated Konzentration Lager & not Vernichtungslager , but in the final months the difference was near tranparent. nazi fanatic attitudes meant deliberate killings, and indifference to conditions turned every concentration camp and guest workers camp of barracks into a defacto death camp.

[Empiricist]

hucks216 & Carl,

In a way, you're both right. We touched on a difficult problem based on various semantic subtleties, substantive inaccuracies and soldierly emotions. This is not a black and white situation, but full of shades of gray.

First of all, how were American soldiers supposed to know what they were really liberating when they entered a camp full of living human skeletons? They didn't know what they were liberating and what was its name. Only Europeans knew what "concentration camps" were, because they had known about them since 1933.

At that time, the United States danced and listened to Glenn Miller and the Dorsey Brothers until December 11, 1941. Until December 11, 1941, Peter Riedel was a beloved guest in the USA's social elite salons, a friend of the USAAC and USAAF, even though he paraded everywhere with a huge swastika on his sleeve. It was this Peter Riedel, who was a glider master, a German air attaché at the Washington Embassy of the Third Reich, and a nasty Nazi spy in the United States.

Until October 1944, average Americans did not know what "concentration camps" were, and American soldiers never knew about it. Because they had no way of knowing about it. The magazines like the Stars and Stripes, Yank, Liberty, and others distributed in the US Army did not write about such matters. The American Administration knew about the concentration camps from December 1942, but withheld this information from the American public. Only an article by Jan Karski in the weekly Collier's of October 14, 1944 described to Americans what concentration camps were. But Collier's did not reach the ETO and was not distributed in the US Army.

I mentioned my favorite American 90th Infantry Division and the liberation of the Flossenbürg concentration camp. This is a very difficult page in the history of the American military. Nowhere will you read what I wrote about it above. There are two monographs of this division from World War II and other books about this division, but they say nothing about what the liberation of the Flossenbürg camp looked like. One esteemed historian has described this dramatic episode, but his book on the subject is currently under an embargo at the request of the families of veterans of the 90th Division.

[Richard Anderson]

First of all, how were American soldiers supposed to know what they were really liberating when they entered a camp full of living human skeletons? They didn't know what they were liberating and what was its name. Only Europeans knew what "concentration camps" were, because they had known about them since 1933.

Sorry but that is nonsense. The USHMM website tracks 551 articles in U.S. newspapers just for 1933-1934 on the opening of Dachau, the internment of political and other "undesireables" there, the poor conditions, summary executions, and so forth. Carol Reed's Night Train to Munich, a 1940 British film, was widely distributed in the U.S., depicted concentration camps and was followed by a number of U.S. films that also did so.

What most Americans, Britons, and Europeans were unaware of was the extent of the concentration camp system, the huge number of inmates, and the systematic plans for extermination.

I mentioned my favorite American 90th Infantry Division and the liberation of the Flossenbürg concentration camp. This is a very difficult page in the history of the American military. Nowhere will you read what I wrote about it above. There are two monographs of this division from World War II and other books about this division, but they say nothing about what the liberation of the Flossenbürg camp looked like. One esteemed historian has described this dramatic episode, but his book on the subject is currently under an embargo at the request of the families of veterans of the 90th Division.

Um, you can read about it on pages 462-463 of John Colby's War from the Ground Up, including the hanging of the 15 paratroopers at Christmas. A History of the 90th Division in World War II covers the liberation of camps on pages 80 and 81. The Divisional AAR for April covers the capture of Flossenburg and included photos, and it is covered in the 358th Infantry AAR as well.

So what are you alluding to? Whose book is "embargoed" and why?

[Empiricist]

First of all, how were American soldiers supposed to know what they were really liberating when they entered a camp full of living human skeletons? They didn't know what they were liberating and what was its name. Only Europeans knew what "concentration camps" were, because they had known about them since 1933.

Sorry but that is nonsense. The USHMM website tracks 551 articles in U.S. newspapers just for 1933-1934 on the opening of Dachau, the internment of political and other "undesireables" there, the poor conditions, summary executions, and so forth. Carol Reed's Night Train to Munich, a 1940 British film, was widely distributed in the U.S., depicted concentration camps and was followed by a number of U.S. films that also did so.

Sorry, but you are fundamentally wrong. What are we talking about? Let us be serious.

In 1933, the US Army numbered about 189,000 soldiers, including the USAAC. In 1945, when the US Army liberated the concentration camps, it numbered 8.267 million soldiers, including the USAAF.

● How many of the 189,000 in 1933 were interested in socio-political affairs in Europe, given American isolationism at the time? How many simple American soldiers of the Great Depression era, non-intellectual soldiers, read magazines for the American elite where perhaps something was mentioned about pioneering, still very mild, concentration camps? Even if someone has read anything about German concentration camps, how many of those 189,000 served in the US Army in 1945 when the US Army liberated the concentration camps?

● Let us be serious. What does the German concentration camp of 1933 have in common with the German concentration camp of 1943? Nothing. The gas chambers in the German concentration camps were established in March 1942. The newspaper articles you mentioned from 1933-1934 are completely worthless because they do not reflect the Holocaust and the extermination of all European nations in German concentration camps in the slightest.

● Read not American, but Polish literature about who was the special agent of the Polish Government Lt. Jan Karski and how he was treated by the British authorities, especially the American ones. No one believed him. They treated him like an idiot, a schizophrenic or a writer of macabre science-fiction literature. He wrote three reports on the Holocaust for the Allied authorities. He was the only special agent of the Western Allies whom he infiltrated the Warsaw ghetto to report on the Holocaust and concentration camps. When he landed in London -- none of the politicians believed him; when he landed in Washington -- even more no one believed him and didn't want to hear about the Holocaust and gas chambers. He met with American President F.D. Roosevelt. So what? And nothing. It didn't help, even though he talked about concentration camps and gas chambers. In the USA he met with Felix Frankfurter, Cordell Hull, William Joseph Donovan, Samuel Stritch and Stephen Wise -- that also didn't work. Nobody wanted to believe in German concentration camps with gas chambers.

So do not write to me, Dear Colleague, that the United States knew during World War II what concentration camps with gas chambers were. The USA learned about it only after photographers from the US Army Signal Corps and American journalists entered these camps in 1945.

[Richard Anderson]

Sorry, but you are fundamentally wrong.

In what? That the existence of the German concentration camps was widespread throughout Europe, Britain, and the United States before the war? Please try to demonstrate how 551 articles in newspapers across the country in two years indicates a lack of knowledge regarding the existence of the camps?

What are we talking about? Let us be serious.

I know what I'm talking about but I'm not sure about you. It is evident by your irrelevant digression into the size of the U.S Army in 1933 and 1945 that you aren't serious.

● How many of the 189,000 in 1933 were interested in socio-political affairs in Europe, given American isolationism at the time? How many simple American soldiers of the Great Depression era, non-intellectual soldiers, read magazines for the American elite where perhaps something was mentioned about pioneering, still very mild, concentration camps? Even if someone has read anything about German concentration camps, how many of those 189,000 served in the U.S. Army in 1945 when the U.S. Army liberated the concentration camps?

Why does it matter how many of the 189,000 were still in service? That is a red herring. American soldiers were "non-intellectual"? Proof? Literacy was a requirement for enlistment prewar and during the war. The most popular magazines such as Time, Life, and Look all covered the rise of the Nazis and the establishment of the camps, as did the newspapers. Literate soldiers would have had ample opportunity to learn. Even those not so interested in reading gained news through newsreels, which were standard fare at movie theaters across the country and which also covered the rise of Nazism and the establishment of the camps.

● Let us be serious. What does the German concentration camp of 1933 have in common with the German concentration camp of 1943? Nothing. The gas chambers in the German concentration camps were established in March 1942. The newspaper articles you mentioned from 1933-1934 are completely worthless because they do not reflect the Holocaust and the extermination of all European nations in German concentration camps in the slightest.

No, YOU be serious. Where did I ever state that the "the German concentration camp of 1933" had anything in common "with the German concentration camp of 1943". In addition to a red herring, you are also using a straw man argument. However, newspaper articles of the 1930s got a lot of traction talking about the horrors of German concentration camps, which of course paled in comparison to what was found in the camps in 1945.

Regardless, your claim was "Only Europeans knew what concentration camps" were, because only they "had known about them since 1933", which is factually incorrect. Now you are attempting to move the goal posts by attempting to promote the notion that American soldiers were functional illiterates with no knowledge of world events before or during the war.

Yes, please do try to be serious.

● Read not American, but Polish literature about who was the special agent of the Polish Government Lt. Jan Karski (snip)

Stop trying to move the goal posts. Your claim was "Only Europeans knew what concentration camps" were, because they "had known about them since 1933", which is factually incorrect. Now you are shifting the argument to "because the Allies did not believe reports from those like Karski who gave them such information" then "Only Europeans knew what concentration camps" were, because they "had known about them since 1933". Karski's report on the events in Poland began filtering to the Allies in 1940 and his report on the Nazi activities in the death camps in Poland was smuggled out in December 1942. Sorry, but 1940 and 1942 are not 1933. Karski's reporting could have no effect on anyone's knowledge of what the concentration camps actually were like between 1933 and 1940.

So do not write to me, Dear Colleague, that the United States knew during World War II what concentration camps with gas chambers were.

Yet another straw man and not what you argued or what I replied to. I never said "that the United States knew during World War II what concentration camps with gas chambers were" Dear Colleague, so please try to argue honestly. Your claim was "Only Europeans knew what concentration camps" were, because they "had known about them since 1933", which is factually incorrect.

The USA learned about it only after photographers from the US Army Signal Corps and American journalists entered these camps in 1945.

Indeed, which would be relevant if it had anything to do with what you argued or what I replied to. Meanwhile, why are you avoiding responding to my question regarding your statements regarding the historiography of the 90th Infantry Division liberation of Flossenburg? What are you alluding to? Whose book is "embargoed" and why?