US in WW II

Discussions on all aspects of the United States of America during the Inter-War era and Second World War. Hosted by Carl Schwamberger.
Caldric
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Post by Caldric » 30 Aug 2002 17:30

Extremist of what? Haters of what?

I could careless if people hate all American's because of my comments or another persons, it just show's their level of maturity.

Alex F.
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Post by Alex F. » 30 Aug 2002 18:00

Did someone call your name?

Oh, right. Someone said extremist and hater, so you had to respond.

Alex

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 30 Aug 2002 18:02

Alex,

No need for that tone so cool it.

/Marcus

Caldric
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Post by Caldric » 30 Aug 2002 18:16

Well me and Andy pretty much were the only ones with differing opinions from the Masses so I assumed since I was the only American discussing it... Sort of eliminates Andy from the Shire. :)

Alex F.
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Post by Alex F. » 30 Aug 2002 18:42

So Marcus, people can post about how it's ok to kill civilians en masse, but when other people call them out on it, we get chastised? You don't consider people that consider actively targeting civilians good to be extremists and haters?
I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry I can't make my point about their point of view.


And yes, I was talking about you Caldric. Very good sleuthing. Have you stopped to consider there just MIGHT be a reason you are in the minority in this?

Alex

Caldric
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Post by Caldric » 30 Aug 2002 18:51

Have you stopped to consider there just MIGHT be a reason you are in the minority in this?
No not really, I am for the most part in the very, very minority on the Third Reich Forums. But then I never needed the approval of people to sway the way I think, the majority can think as they will, they will have no bearing on my post.

I have no doubt Marcus would have set me in my place if he considered I was showing hatred or whatever. I am not by any means, but nor do I jump on the Damn the Allies band wagon.

Alex F.
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Post by Alex F. » 30 Aug 2002 19:34

Perhaps you misunderstand. I am not on any "damn the allies" bandwagon. However, I can see the good and bad on both sides. That is the way of a historian as opposed to someone with a closed mind.

I used to think the atomic bombs were totally necessary. The more I study on it, the less I think they were. I still can see the tactical reasoning for them, but when I see the alternatives that were left aside I wonder why the Allies were considered "good".

Granted, the Axis had some horrible parts. Horrible. Nonetheless... the Allies ended up sinking to the same level in destroying the Axis. My question then is what did we gain?

Nothing but jingoism.

Patriotism and blinders don't mix.

Alex

walterkaschner
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Post by walterkaschner » 30 Aug 2002 19:40

ChristianT wrote in his description of the Dresden air raid that:
...low flying aircraft was used to machine gun fleeing civilians - mostly women, children, and elderly that seeked refuge from the eastern German regions that were being overrun by the Red Army. Because these aircrafts were low flying, the pilots were fully aware of their targets.
The charge that in the Dresden raid allied aircraft purposely strafed civilians has IMHO been thoroughly discredited. Although David Irving described the strafing with high drama in his book on Dresden, the story has been proved apochryphal in a meticulous study published by Helmut Schnatz as "Tiefflieger über Dresden: Legende und Wirklichkeit", Böhlau Verlag, 2000. To the same effect, but with less detailed analysis, is a book published several years ago by Götz Bergander, the name and date of which I can not recall.

Which does not, of course, in any substantial way diminish the horror of the raid. My wife's grandmother and aunt were refugees from Silesia and in Dresden at the time. They were never heard from again.

The question of whether, under the circumstances at the time, the raid was justified or not I have yet to resolve in my own mind, and probably never will. What I find striking and even more puzzling, however, is how and why - in what we like to think of as the civilized world - 19th Century notions of the sanctity of non-combatants in time of war became so thoroughly eroded in the 20th.

Regards, Kaschner

Caldric
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Post by Caldric » 30 Aug 2002 19:44

I used to think the atomic bombs were totally necessary. The more I study on it, the less I think they were. I still can see the tactical reasoning for them, but when I see the alternatives that were left aside I wonder why the Allies were considered "good".

Ever read the Chinese side? I have no problem destroying the enemy to save my own, none.

http://centurychina.com/wiihist/hiroshima/ytruman.htm
Granted, the Axis had some horrible parts. Horrible. Nonetheless... the Allies ended up sinking to the same level in destroying the Axis. My question then is what did we gain?
Not by a long shot, and statements such as these are the reason I am here. Not even the Soviets sunk to the Nazi level.

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 30 Aug 2002 20:09

Well said Caldric. Alex, there is no way you can say that the Allies sank to the levels of the axis powers and support it. Still bad things happen in war and it was a different age then. I wasn't there but I do know that the allied victory was a better thing than the axis winning. That's all you have to choose on this topic. Boo Hoo.......we won. :D
Regards
A

Alex F.
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Post by Alex F. » 30 Aug 2002 20:24

Caldric wrote:
Granted, the Axis had some horrible parts. Horrible. Nonetheless... the Allies ended up sinking to the same level in destroying the Axis. My question then is what did we gain?
Not by a long shot, and statements such as these are the reason I am here. Not even the Soviets sunk to the Nazi level.
That's a matter of opinion. Face it pal, the Allies weren't the friggin goodie two shoes you seem to make them out to be, PARTICULARLY the Russians.

Thanks for the Chinese link. I know the Japanese were brutal butchering little monsters. That's not my point.

You are missing the point (or blind to it) in your rush to make your skewed view of history known.

Alex

Alex F.
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Post by Alex F. » 30 Aug 2002 20:27

aufklarung wrote:Well said Caldric. Alex, there is no way you can say that the Allies sank to the levels of the axis powers and support it. Still bad things happen in war and it was a different age then. I wasn't there but I do know that the allied victory was a better thing than the axis winning. That's all you have to choose on this topic. Boo Hoo.......we won. :D
Regards
A
I don't have to, many others have said it for me. You just choose to ignore it.

Don't worry, I'm GLAD the Allies won. I DON'T support fascism, or totalitarianism... the unfortunate thing is that WE became too much LIKE THEM to BEAT THEM.

If you can't get that concept, then that's too bad. I don't really care anymore at this point. Live in your glass houses, the both of you. This isn't personal, don't take it as such. I just don't agree with either of you and never will.

Alex

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 30 Aug 2002 20:35

And that is your hard fought right. :D

Alex F.
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Post by Alex F. » 30 Aug 2002 21:18

Very true.

:)
Alex

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christianT
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Post by christianT » 31 Aug 2002 00:59

Caldric wrote:Extremist of what? Haters of what?

I could careless if people hate all American's because of my comments or another persons, it just show's their level of maturity.
and your comment shows also your level of literacy...luckily, I know there are other kind of americans.

-christianT

ps: sorry marcus, I know it's getting a bit personal, I will try to refrain of any other such comments from now on :) Tack och hej da.

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