Stay out or Die

Discussions on all aspects of the United States of America during the Inter-War era and Second World War. Hosted by Carl Schwamberger.
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T.R.Searle
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Post by T.R.Searle » 15 Aug 2002 17:14

Does anyone have any information on When the Canadian army were on the outskirts of Rome the American 5th Army threatened if they attempted to enter they would be fired upon?

T.R.Searle :)

Lobscouse
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Rome

Post by Lobscouse » 16 Aug 2002 00:55

I thought that Rome had been given Open City status. Still, General Mark Clark was no man to mess with, and I don't mean as in Offocers' Mess.

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Post by Caldric » 16 Aug 2002 01:01

I have found nothing relating to this, nor have I heard about it. It could have been a small isolated unit I suppose, but I was pretty sure the 5th Army were the first to reach Rome. And Rome was an open city.

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 16 Aug 2002 05:15

Yes, US 5th Army liberated Rome but I'm sure Mark Clarke was tasked to support us in the form of an advance not in the direction of Rome. This was not done because he wanted to be the first into Rome. Period. USA showboating at our expense again.

I have heard stories from our Italy vets similar to what you ask but nothing firm or backed up. No love lost between our guys and US 5 that's for sure. Let me check a book and I'll let you know what I find soon. :D

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Lawrence Tandy
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Post by Lawrence Tandy » 16 Aug 2002 05:49

Yes, I also read somewhere that Americans were authorized to fire on other Allied troops to keep them from reaching Rome first. I really have no idea if there is any truth to it however. Interested in finding out though.


LT

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T.R.Searle
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Post by T.R.Searle » 16 Aug 2002 15:30

One of the wars interesting mysteries :) Imagine if the Americans did fire on the Canadians/British 8O

T.R.Searle :)

Caldric
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Post by Caldric » 16 Aug 2002 17:28

Well sorry guys but it sounds far fetched that American's were given an order to fire on allies, I highly doubt it. I have never once heard of anything like this until it was posted here. I would think such an order would be very much talked about. Even the wacko conspiracy sites on the internet state nothing about it as far as I can find and I looked for a good long time.

alsaco
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Post by alsaco » 16 Aug 2002 18:00

The story of firing orders on non american troops nearing Rome is certainly false.
However the fact that US commanding officer, General Clark, was willing to do the most to have american forces as first in Rome is clearly expressed by the orders given.

Nearing Rome were americans coming from Anzio Nettuno and americans with polish reinforcement coming from Monte Cassino. In the interval the french forces having pierced the german front at Monte Mayo. I don't know if canadian australian and british forces were on the western side of the peninsula, but they had a lot of difficulties on the east coast, from Ancona up to Rimini, and their number in the Frascati region must have been limited.

The french arrived first south of the Frascati Hills. Orders stopped them to permit the crossing of american troups in front of them, from South to the south west of Rome. Germans were still fighting in the hills.
Then the french troups were given the axe of fighting in the direction of Tivoli, 30 km east of Rome. The town was taken after some clashes with retreating german in the Hadrian garden ruins.

Clarke had this way prevented french to make a race on Rome, which they certainly would have liked. And Americans were first in Rome, coming along the road from Latina. Germans had evacuated town before.

But some french units did take wrong roads, and finally by Genarolo and Save reached the road from Rome to Tivoli in the suburbs of Rome.
So some people claim that french troops liberated Rome also.

Naturally the french commander, Général Juin, instructed by De Gaulle made strong representations to Clarke, saying that the Tivoli direction was just a trick, to assure that americans will be first.

Practically, the solution was found the day after, when troups from all allies participated in the défilé in Rome, with Clark and Juin on the tribune, with also the british commander, and polish representatives.

The stop in Rome was very short, and even during the ceremonies the push toward Sienne and Firenze did begin.

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Post by neo_neon » 16 Aug 2002 18:00

I would have to agree with Caldric... I mean come on if that was true you Canadians would never let us forget it. Besides this is the first I have heard of it also.

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Post by Caldric » 16 Aug 2002 18:26

I mean they practically fired our best General, Patton just because the whining sniveling ass Montgomery and he could not get along (always been my opinion for his removal from command after slapping the private), could you imagine what they would have done to Clarke for giving such an order that could rip the alliance apart?

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Firing on allies

Post by Lobscouse » 16 Aug 2002 18:39

As anyone who has ever seen the TV comedy show Frazier knows, it is "total BS" according to Bulldog.

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 17 Aug 2002 20:48

Agreed. I highly doubt there was any such order given. Even Yanks ain't that there igrant :lol:
I still maintain tho' that Clark left alot of troops from more than a few countries in a lurch to satisfy his ego. Pompous ass. At least Monty wore his heart on his sleeve. He was what he presented. People skills were a bit short but no personal glory trips.(man I'm gonna hear it for that statement!!)
How many guys died because he would rather play Ceasar that cut off the retreating Germans? That Anzio mess was the real culprit anyway. Invade and stop...new for the 1944 USArmy Strategic Battle Manual?
:P

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alsaco
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Clarke and Rome

Post by alsaco » 28 Aug 2002 22:52

Return on my previous note. I was missing part of the story.

Cabadians were present with the Poles in the breach of Cassino stronghold.
They then took the axis on the north of the old roman road, some days after the french arrived on the south of the road.

Meanwhile americans comming from Anzio had begun to use the axis from west toward east.

Orders were for Clarke to push toward the mountains and to close in the german troups retreating between english/canadian/polish advancing troops and american divisions in stopping position. Orders given by the british commander in chief

Instead Clarke turned toward Rome, putting the french as side protection against retraiting germans. This permitted the escape of germans around Tivoli by the north, and it is said that this disobey allowed the reestablishment of Kesselring in Firenze, and anyway saved the main part of the divisions pushed back by Alexander's soldiers

Chasing the germans from Cassino, canadians were never in position to reach Rome before Americans, already miles in advance.

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Aufklarung
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Post by Aufklarung » 29 Aug 2002 02:04

..............and get their asses kicked by the Germans as a result. :x

thank you America.

Lord Styphon
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Post by Lord Styphon » 29 Aug 2002 04:21

Don't blame us! Just Mark Clark.

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