US tanks and other AFVs that landed in Normandie

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Dima
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#31

Post by Dima » 12 Nov 2004, 21:29

hey,

on that pic Auklarung posted there is bow MG for DD Sherman is it correct? Thought they had only 1 coax MG cuz of that 'screen'. And did DD Shermans have same armor as casual tank or.. ?

RichTO90, were there flamethrower tanx (M4R3?) in US sectors especially on Utah beach sector?

Thnx in advance,Dima.

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#32

Post by RichTO90 » 12 Nov 2004, 21:40

Dima wrote:RichTO90, were there flamethrower tanx (M4R3?) in US sectors especially on Utah beach sector?

Thnx in advance,Dima.
No there were no US flamethrower tank conversion kits E4R3, R3, R4 (M3-4-3), E6 or USMC POA in the ETO or MTO prior to the invasion - at least none that had been installed. The first appear to have been installed in some of the initial Jumbos issued to some separate tank battalions in September 1944 (for instance the 737th apparently had 3). The conversion kit apparently used was the R4 (M3-4-3), which replaced the bow machine gun and utilized internal tankage in the crew compartment.


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Aufklarung
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#33

Post by Aufklarung » 12 Nov 2004, 23:01

Dima wrote:...there is bow MG for DD Sherman is it correct?
Yes, quite correct. I have stood in front of BOLD (B Sqn 1st Hussars- First wave) and she has a bow MG.

Image

Image
http://www.canadianbattleofnormandyfoun ... llery2.htm

regards
A :)

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redcoat
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#34

Post by redcoat » 14 Nov 2004, 00:57

Dima wrote:hey,

on that pic Auklarung posted there is bow MG for DD Sherman is it correct? Thought they had only 1 coax MG cuz of that 'screen'. And did DD Shermans have same armor as casual tank or.. ?.
A DD Sherman was just a normal Sherman in every respect, except it was fitted with the extra DD equipment.

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#35

Post by JonS » 16 Nov 2004, 07:24

RichTO90 wrote:
JonS wrote:Rich, the data you are looking for pertaining to 2CAB be be found in the Canadian docs I linked to above.
Thanks Jon, but Report 147 doesn't really answer the questions - or at least all of the question. It states that the DD Regiments had 5 Fireflies each in their non-DD squadron. But what was 27 CAR equipped with? I have a feeling that it was probably 12 Fireflies, but it could have been 15 - we simply don't know for sure. And probably still won't until we dig into the brigade and regimental reports.
From Report 147, paragraphs 73 and 122:
73. The requirements of the assault phase necessitated complete reorganization of 6 and 10 Cdn Armd Regts (under the command, respectively, of 7 and 8 Cdn Inf Bdes). Two squadrons in each regiment were equipped with D.D. or swimming tanks (Sherman V Duplex Drive amphibious tanks), the third squadron retaining its normal Shermans, including five Sherman Vc (17-pounder). The D.D. tanks were fitted with flotation equipment; this consisted principally of a collapsible canvas screen inflated by compressed air, and twin propellers to provide driving power. (C.M.H.Q. file 55/530/9/4 (S.D. 4): D.R.A.C.'s Monthly Liaison Letter No. 25.) 27 Cdn Armd Regt, under command of 9 Cdn Inf Bde, comprised three normally constituted squadrons, but with only four Sherman Vc per squadron. (Ibid.) So secret was the nature of the D.D. tanks that troops were warned, even on exercises, to refer to them only as "leading flight", or "first wave". (W.D., S.D. & G. Highrs, April 1944: Appx 27, Directive from H.Q. 3 Cdn Inf Div, 19 Jan 44.)

122. The organization of 6 and 10 Cdn Armd Regts each into two squadrons of D.D. tanks and one squadron of normal Shermans has been referred previously (para 73). This arrangement was designed to give close support to each assaulting battalion at the crucial moment of landing. Reserve battalions, making an unopposed landing, would be supported ashore, by "normal" squadrons. For a detailed description of the manner in which it was proposed to operate the amphibious tanks, reference should be made to the memorandum, Drill for Launching and Runin of DDs, issued by 2 Cdn Armd Bde, 13 Apr 44. (W.D., H.Q. 2 Cdn Armd Bde, 20 Apr - 31 May 44: Appx 44. (W.D., H.Q. 2 Cdn Armd Bde, 20 Apr - 31 May 44: Appx 11.) Launching was to take place at 5000 yards from the beach under cover of smoke laid by L.C.G. (L), touchdown being made at H minus 5 minutes. D.D. tanks were thus to form the first wave of the assault, going in five minutes before the landing flight of craft hit the beach. (See diagram at Appendix "H".) Although it was considered improbable that the operation would be mounted if seas were rough, it was nonetheless entertained as a possibility that the launching of D.D. tanks might have to be cancelled altogether. (Ibid.) 6 to 10 Cdn Armd Regts were each in addition to supply two Sherman tanks Vc to be employed as "concrete-busters" in the assault. These would be borne in L.C.T. (C.B.)(see ships and craft of Force "J", Appendix "B") and would disembark so as to deliver observed fire from their 17-pounder guns against emplacements. (R.C.A., 3 Cdn Inf Div O.O. No. 1.) Concretebusters would revert to regimental command on completion of their tasks. (2 Cdn Armd Bde O.O. No. 1.)
Emphasis me.

Regards
Jon

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#36

Post by RichTO90 » 16 Nov 2004, 16:13

JonS wrote: Emphasis me.

Regards
Jon
Gack! Thanks Jon, that's what I get for not re-reading more carefully. And yes I had forgotten the assignement of the CB Fireflies, it is clearly indicated in the NEPTUNE landing craft assignments too.

So that gives 2 CAB a total of 22 Fireflies, which matches the other reports. And that makes them "short" 14 Fireflies from the establishment set of 12 per regiment and 36 per brigade, which also matches.

Thanks for the help.

Rich

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#37

Post by RichTO90 » 16 Nov 2004, 16:13

RichTO90 wrote:
JonS wrote: Emphasis me.

Regards
Jon
Gack! Thanks Jon, that's what I get for not re-reading more carefully. And yes I had forgotten the assignement of the CB Fireflies, it is clearly indicated in the NEPTUNE landing craft assignments too.

So that gives 2 CAB a total of 22 Fireflies, which matches the other reports. And that makes them "short" 14 Fireflies from the establishment set of 12 per regiment and 36 per brigade, which also matches.

Thanks for the help.

Anybody interested in the distribution of "Funnies" and their losses on D-Day? :D

Rich

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#38

Post by JonS » 18 Nov 2004, 22:13

RichTO90 wrote: So that gives 2 CAB a total of 22 Fireflies, which matches the other reports. And that makes them "short" 14 Fireflies from the establishment set of 12 per regiment and 36 per brigade, which also matches.
No problem, and you're welcome :) I would expect that the other DD Brigades (8th & 27th) were similarly organised.

Your quantity of 22 VCs is a bit puzzling though. I get:
6CAR: A=2, B=2, C=5, Total 9
10CAR: A=2, B=2, C=5, Total 9
27CAR: A=4, B=4, C=4, Total 12

Thus, 2CAB Total = 30
(with a 'normal' bde having 45, or 36 on the slightly lower 4/sqn establishment)

I can get 22 if the VC CBs in A & B Sqns (6 & 10 CARs) were loaners from 27CAR, or from C Sqn of their own regts.

I'd be interested in the funnies, particularly the types and quantities actually unloaded, by beach and time ;) But, ah, anything convienient you've got would be splendid too.

Jon

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#39

Post by RichTO90 » 19 Nov 2004, 16:52

JonS wrote:
RichTO90 wrote: So that gives 2 CAB a total of 22 Fireflies, which matches the other reports. And that makes them "short" 14 Fireflies from the establishment set of 12 per regiment and 36 per brigade, which also matches.
No problem, and you're welcome :) I would expect that the other DD Brigades (8th & 27th) were similarly organised.

Your quantity of 22 VCs is a bit puzzling though. I get:
6CAR: A=2, B=2, C=5, Total 9
10CAR: A=2, B=2, C=5, Total 9
27CAR: A=4, B=4, C=4, Total 12

Thus, 2CAB Total = 30
(with a 'normal' bde having 45, or 36 on the slightly lower 4/sqn establishment)

I can get 22 if the VC CBs in A & B Sqns (6 & 10 CARs) were loaners from 27CAR, or from C Sqn of their own regts.

I'd be interested in the funnies, particularly the types and quantities actually unloaded, by beach and time ;) But, ah, anything convienient you've got would be splendid too.

Jon
Thanks Jon, I think my brain must have gone into neutral about three posts ago. :P

But the "normal" establishment as of D-Day was 12 per regiment, not 15. That is clearly shown in the 21 AG and 2 Army RAC records as found in their war diaries. For example in WO 205/636, A.F.V. Summaries by HQ 21 Army Group, June-July, we find a list of the "WE of Fmns Ashore - Gun Tks only, but incl RAC OPs & Flails" (undated but appear to be from circa 31 July - only the Poles are not "ashore") in which it is remarked that the WE of 1,976 Shermans would include "324 are 17-pr on the scale of 12 per regiment."

I will try to process the info on the Funnies and post it ASAP, but I've got 10,576 digital images from the PRO (excuse me, "National Archives" :D ) to organize. It may take a few days to track down. :D

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Wolfkin
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#40

Post by Wolfkin » 23 Nov 2004, 04:33

Hello!

According to this link the Canadian 2nd Armoured Brigade was equipped with 95 Sherman III (M4A2), 76 Sherman V (M4A4) DD and 22 Sherman VC (M4A4 Firefly). This is for June 1944 and I do not know if it is specifically for June 6th.

http://web.archive.org/web/200104100047 ... 1agt-1.htm

Cheers,

Wolfkin

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#41

Post by RichTO90 » 29 Dec 2004, 22:23

JonS wrote:
RichTO90 wrote: So that gives 2 CAB a total of 22 Fireflies, which matches the other reports. And that makes them "short" 14 Fireflies from the establishment set of 12 per regiment and 36 per brigade, which also matches.
No problem, and you're welcome :) I would expect that the other DD Brigades (8th & 27th) were similarly organised.

Your quantity of 22 VCs is a bit puzzling though. I get:
6CAR: A=2, B=2, C=5, Total 9
10CAR: A=2, B=2, C=5, Total 9
27CAR: A=4, B=4, C=4, Total 12

Thus, 2CAB Total = 30
(with a 'normal' bde having 45, or 36 on the slightly lower 4/sqn establishment)

I can get 22 if the VC CBs in A & B Sqns (6 & 10 CARs) were loaners from 27CAR, or from C Sqn of their own regts.

I'd be interested in the funnies, particularly the types and quantities actually unloaded, by beach and time ;) But, ah, anything convienient you've got would be splendid too.

Jon
As an update, it may now be conclusively shown that 2 CAB indeed only had 22 Fireflies as of D-Day (and 171 Sherman 75mm). This may be referenced in WO 171/153 RAC Main Branch, 21 Army Group, June 1944, wherein on 23 June it was noted that 2 CAB had "landed" 22 Sherman Fireflies to date, had lost 6 and had received no reinforcements (only 6 had been issued as replacments to 27 AB).

Further it is clear from the Admiralty planning documents that for the landing on JUNO 2 CAB utilized just 4 Fireflies on two LCT (CB) during the run in, 2 from 10th CAR on LCT (CB) 2338 of the 103rd LCT (A) Flotilla in Group J.322 with 8th CIB and 2 from 6th CAR on LCT (CB) 2041 of the 105th LCT (A) Flotilla in Group J.312 with 7th CIB.

The total "landed" was 80 Sherman VDD, 91 Sherman III and 22 Sherman Vc. Another 31 tanks (Sherman III and Stuarts, was held by the Forward Delivery Squadron).

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#42

Post by RichTO90 » 11 Jan 2005, 19:08

JonS wrote: I'd be interested in the funnies, particularly the types and quantities actually unloaded, by beach and time ;) But, ah, anything convienient you've got would be splendid too.

Jon
Well, I'm assuming you are checking this thread, even if you didn't respond to my last regarding 2 CAB. Here is what I have been able to glean from the Funnies so far.

1st Assault Brigade, RE, Brigadier Watkinson aboard LCT (Serial 1413a)

5th Assault Regiment, RE, Lieutenant-Colonel Cocks
Casualties to the regiment (including RHQ) as of D+4 were (Officers & OR) 8 & 16 KIA, 8 & 39 WIA, and 0 & 49 MIA. Of 81 AVRE embarked, as of D+4 53 were fit, 8 were in 2nd line repair, 16 were in 3rd line repair or written off, and 4 were missing.
SWORD Beach:
77th Squadron, Major K.du B. Ferguson
Strength (including detachment 22nd Dragoons) was 13 Officers & 186 OR, D-Day casualties were
2 Officers & 7 OR KIA, 3 Officers & 7 OR WIA, and 2 OR MIA
1 Troop (GREEN Gap, QUEEN RED Sector), D-Day casualties were 1 Officer & 1 OR KIA and
2 OR MIA:
LCT (Serial 112) –3 Flail (A, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Log Carpet and Porpoise), 1
AVRE (Assault Bridge), 1 AVRE (Bobbin), Captain G.C. McLennan (KIA),
Lieutenants C.J.P. Tennent (77th Squadron) and D. Knapp (22nd Dragoons)
2 Troop (YELLOW Gap, QUEEN RED Sector), D-Day casualties were 4 OR KIA and 6 OR
WIA:
LCT (Serial 111) – 2 Flail (A, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE, 1 AVRE (Log Carpet and
Porpoise), 1 AVRE (Assault Bridge), 1 AVRE (Bobbin), Major Ferguson and
Captain Low
LCT (Serial 110a) – 2 Flail (A, 22nd Dragoons) 2 AVRE, 2 D7 Bulldozer Captain
Wheway and Lieutenant Sadler (22nd Dragoons)
3 Troop (BLUE Gap, QUEEN RED Sector), D-Day casualties were 1 OR KIA and 2 Officers & 2
OR WIA:
LCT (Serial 110) – 3 Flail (A, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Log Carpet and Porpoise), 1
AVRE (Assault Bridge), 1 AVRE (Bobbin), Captain W.C.S. Carruthers (WIA) and Lieutenant I.C.B. Dickinson (WIA)
4 Troop (RED GAP, QUEEN RED Sector) D-Day casualties were 1 Officer & 1 OR KIA and 1
Officer WIA:
LCT (Serial 109) – 2 Flail (A, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE, 1 AVRE (Log Carpet and
Porpoise), 1 AVRE (Assault Bridge), 1 AVRE (Bobbin), Lieutenant-Colonel
Cocks (KIA), Captain T. Fairie, Lieutenants J.G. Charlton (77th Squadron, WIA) and Robertson (22nd Dragoons)
Support:
LCT (A) (Serial 533) – 2 D7 Bulldozer
LCT (A) (Serial 535) – 1 Flail (A, 22nd Dragoons)
79th Squadron, Major J.G. Hanson
Strength (including detachment 22nd Dragoons) was 10 Officers & 169 OR, D-Day casualties were
2 Officers & 8 OR KIA, 3 Officers & 10 OR WIA, and 2 OR MIA
1 Troop (GREEN Gap, QUEEN WHITE Sector), D-Day casualties were 7 OR KIA:
LCT (Serial 113) – 2 Flail (A, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE, 1 AVRE (Log Carpet and
Porpoise), 1 AVRE (Assault Bridge), 1 AVRE (Bobbin), Major Hanson, Captain
R.C. Cunningham, Lieutenant V.W. Boal (22nd Dragoons)
2 Troop (YELLOW Gap, QUEEN WHITE Sector), D-Day casualties were 1 Officer KIA, 1
Officer & 3 OR WIA, and 2 OR MIA:
LCT (Serial 114) – 3 Flail, (A, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Log Carpet and Porpoise), 1
AVRE (Assault Bridge), 1 AVRE (Bobbin), Captain G.C. Desanges (KIA), 2nd
Lieutenant A.J. Nicholson (WIA)
3 Troop (BLUE Gap, QUEEN WHITE Sector), D-Day casualties were 1 Officer KIA, 1 Officer
& 4 OR WIA:
LCT (Serial 114a) – 2 Flail (A, 22nd Dragoons), 2 AVRE, 2 D7 Bulldozers, Captain
W.M.B. Ayers (KIA)
LCT (Serial 115) – 2 Flail 1 AVRE, 1 AVRE (Log Carpet and Porpoise), 1 AVRE
(Assault Bridge), 1 AVRE (Bobbin), Lieutenant W.M.M. Hutchinson (WIA)
4 Troop (RED Gap, QUEEN WHITE Sector), D-Day casualties were 1 OR KIA, 1 Officer & 3
OR WIA:
LCT (Serial 116) – 3 Flail (A, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Log Carpet and Porpoise), 1
AVRE (Assault Bridge), 1 AVRE (Bobbin), Captain E.B. Pollard (WIA), 2nd
Lieutenant P.R.R. Phillips, Lieutenant Allen (22nd Dragoons)
Support:
LCT (A) (Serial 545) – 2 D7 Bulldozer
LCT (A) (Serial 547) – 1 AVRE
LCT (CB) (Serial 548) –1 Flail (A, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE
JUNO Beach:
26th Squadron, RE, Major Younger (WIA)
Strength (including detachment 22nd Dragoons) was 11 Officers & 201 OR, except for Major
Younger, no casualties were recorded for D-Day
1 Troop (GREEN Gap, MIKE GREEN Sector):
LCT (Serial 1018) – 2 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Bobbin), 1 D7 Bulldozer, 1
ARV (Beach Recovery Section), Lieutenant Barraclough (22nd Dragoons)
LCT (Serial 1019) – 1 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Fascine), 1 AVRE (Assault
Bridge), Captain Hewitt
2 Troop (YELLOW Gap, MIKE RED Sector):
LCT (Serial 1019a) – 3 AVRE, 1 ARV (Beach Recovery Section), Lieutenant Sharp
LCT (Serial 1020) – 1 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Plough), 1 AVRE (Sledge?), 1
D7 Bulldozer, 1 AVRE (Assault Bridge), Major Younger and Lieutenant Pratt
LCT (Serial 1021) – 1 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE, 1 AVRE (Fascine), 1 AVRE
(Assault Bridge), Captain Hendry
3 Troop (BLUE Gap, NAN GREEN Sector):
LCT (Serial 1022) – 1 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Fascine), 1 AVRE (Log
Carpet), 1 AVRE (Assault Bridge), Lieutenant Ash
LCT (Serial 1023) – 1 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Bobbin), 1 AVRE, 1 AVRE
(Sledge), 1 D7 Bulldozer, Captain Boase
LCT (Serial 1023a) – 1 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Fascine), 2 AVRE, Lieutenant
Shaw (22nd Dragoons)
4 Troop (RED Gap, NAN GREEN Sector):
LCT (Serial 1024) – 1 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Fascine), 1 AVRE (Log
Carpet), 1 AVRE (Assault Bridge), Captain Mare
LCT (Serial 1025) – 1 D7 Bulldozer (Porpoise), 1 AVRE (Fascine), 1 AVRE (Assault
Bridge), Lieutenant David
80th Squadron, RE, Major Wiltshire
Strength (including detachment 22nd Dragoons) was 11 Officers & 180 OR, D-Day casualties were
1 Officer & 1 OR KIA, 1 Officer and 6 OR WIA
1 Troop (GREEN Gap, NAN WHITE Sector), D-Day casualties were 1 OR KIA and 1 OR WIA:
LCT (Serial 1408) – 1 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Log Carpet), 1 AVRE
(Fascine), 1 AVRE (Assault Bridge), Lieutenant Saunders
LCT (Serial 1409) – 1 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE, 1 AVRE (Fascine), 1 D7
Bulldozer, Lieutenant Oxtoby
LCT (Serial 1409a) – 1 AVRE (Plough), 1 ARV (Beach Recovery Section), 1 D7
Bulldozer, Captain Tracy
2 Troop (YELLOW Gap, NAN WHITE Sector), D-Day casualties were 2 OR WIA:
LCT (Serial 1410) – 2 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE, 1 AVRE (Fascine), Lieutenant
Hammerton (22nd Dragoons)
LCT (Serial 1411) – 1 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE, 1 AVRE (Fascine), 1 AVRE
(Assault Bridge), Captain Grant
LCT (Serial 1412) – 1 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE, 1 AVRE (Fascine), 1 AVRE
(Assault Bridge), Captain Essery
3 Troop (BLUE Gap, NAN RED Sector), D-Day casualties were zero:
LCT (Serial 1413) – 1 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE, 1 AVRE (Bobbin), 1 D7
Bulldozer, Lieutenant Gloyn
LCT (Serial 1413a) – 2 ARV (Beach Recovery Section), 1 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 1 D7
Bulldozer, Major Wiltshire
4 Troop (GREEN Gap, NAN RED Sector), D-Day casualties were 1 Officer KIA and 1 Officer &
3 OR WIA:
LCT (Serial 1414) – 2 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 2 AVRE, Lieutenants Hornby (80th
Squadron, KIA) and Burbridge (22nd Dragoons)
LCT (Serial 1415) – 1 Flail (B, 22nd Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Bobbin), 1 AVRE (Fascine), 1
AVRE (Assault Bridge), Captain Bellingham-Smith (WIA)
GOLD Beach:
6th Assault Regiment, RE (-), Casualties to the 81st and 82nd Squadrons as of D+ 2 were (Officers & OR)
1 & 2 KIA, 2 & 15 WIA, 0 & 5 MIA, 8 AVRE lost and 2 damaged.
81st Squadron, RE, Major R.E. Thompstone, squadron rallied south of VER SUR MER after losing 4
AVRE, 2 to drowning and 2 blown up
KING GREEN, Major Sutton (OC, C Squadron, Westminster Dragoons)
Gap 1, Captain D.A. King:
LCT (Serial 2412) – 2 Flail (C, Westminster Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Pusher), 1 AVRE
(Bobbin), 1 AVRE (Fascine)
Gap 2, Lieutenant J.D. Darby:
LCT (Serial 2413) – 2 Flail (C, Westminster Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Pusher), 1 AVRE
(Bobbin), 1 AVRE (Fascine)
Gap 3, Captain T.W. Davis and Lieutenant E.H. Boulter:
LCT (Serial 2414) – 2 Flail (C, Westminster Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Pusher), 1 AVRE
(Bobbin), 1 AVRE (Fascine), 1 AVRE (Assault Bridge)
KING RED, Major Thompstone
Gap 4, Lieutenant J.C. Skelly:
LCT (Serial 2423) – 2 Flail (C, Westminster Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Pusher), 1 AVRE
(Bobbin), 1 AVRE (Fascine), D4 Bulldozer
Gap 5, Major Thompstone and Captain T.F. Croxall:
LCT (Serial 2424) – 2 Flail (C, Westminster Dragoons), 1 AVRE, 1 AVRE (Pusher), 1
AVRE (Bobbin), 1 AVRE (Fascine)
Gap 6, Captain J.M. Birkbeck:
LCT (Serial 2425) – 2 Flail (C, Westminster Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Pusher), 1 AVRE
(Bobbin), 1 AVRE (Fascine), 1 D7 Bulldozer
82nd Squadron, RE, Major H.G.A. Elphinstone (KIA, Gap 2), squadron rallied at BUHOT after losing 4
AVRE, 3 to drowning and 1 overturned
JIG GREEN West, Major Elphinstone
Gap 1, Captain K.M. Wilford:
LCT (Serial 2025) – 2 Flail (B, Westminster Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Pusher), 1 AVRE
(Bobbin), 1 AVRE (Fascine)
Gap 2, Major Elphinstone:
LCT (Serial 2027) – 2 Flail (B, Westminster Dragoons), 1 AVRE, 1 AVRE (Pusher), 1
AVRE (Bobbin), 1 AVRE (Fascine)
Gap 3 Lieutenants S.V. Grant and N.W. Greene:
LCT (Serial 2026) – 2 Flail (B, Westminster Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Pusher), 1 AVRE
(Bobbin), 1 AVRE (Fascine)
JIG GREEN East, Captain Stannion (OC, B Squadron, Westminster Dragoons)
Gap 4, Captain J.M. Laytham and Lieutenant P. Crofton:
LCT (Serial 2028) – 2 Flail (B, Westminster Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Pusher), 1 AVRE
(Bobbin), 2 AVRE (Fascine)
Gap 5, Lieutenant G.R. Ellis:
LCT (Serial 2029) –2 Flail (B, Westminster Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Pusher), 1 AVRE
(Bobbin), 1 AVRE (Fascine)
Gap 6, Captain P.J.B. Somerset:
LCT (Serial 2030) – 2 Flail (B, Westminster Dragoons), 1 AVRE (Pusher), 1 AVRE
(Bobbin), 1 AVRE (Fascine)

Sources: WO 171/1797, No. 1 Assault Brigade War Diary, June-December 1944
WO 171/1800, No. 5 Assault Regiment War Diary, June-December 1944
WO 205/1120, Report by Brig. Watkinson on Work of Assault RE in the Invasion
WO 205/1159, 79th Armoured Division Final Report
WO 205/1160, 1st Assault Brigade, R.E., History 1943-1945
WO 205/1170, Chief Engineer, 21 Army Group, R.E. Report on the Battle of Normandy, 6th June-
5th July 1944
Note that the LCT are designated by their embarkation serial number rather than by their Navy number.

Lt.Col. Cocks was killed when the LCT carrying 4 Troop, 77th Squadron was struck by mortar fire that set off some of the Bangalores stored on one of the AVRE. The LCT returned to England without unloading.

The sources for the 5th Assault Regiment conflict at different points indicating that the 26th Squadron had 25 AVRE, the 80th Squadron 22 AVRE, and the 77th and 79th Squadrons 17 AVRE each, a total of 81 for the regiment, but it is assumed that this detailed breakdown (also 81 total) is correct.

The casualties of 77th Squadron include two KIA from regimental HQ, Lt.Col. Cocks and his Signal Sergeant, embarked with 4 Troop. They and probably other HQ personnel embarked with 4 Troop were likely not counted in the strength given for the 77th Squadron. There may have been additional losses to 4 Troop personnel, except for the wounding of Lieutenant Charlton their casualties are given as “unknown” for D-Day.

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#43

Post by JonS » 13 Jan 2005, 11:17

Hi Rich,
yes, I am still following it, just less regularly since a bi before Christmas. Summer, beach, holidays, BBQs, etc. Priorities man! Priorities!

Anyway, many thanks for the updates, though I think it's going to take me a while to digest the Funnies info 8O

The 22 VCs per Bde still has me foxed though. I am not questioning the total, just wondering how that then breaks down by regt and sqn. Presumably the non-DD regt in each bde maintained the normal org of 4 per sqn, giving 12 in that regt. But that only leaves 5 for each of the DD regts ... which doesn't 'fit' in any kind of balanced way. 1 per sqn, plus 2 in sqn HQ maybe.

Again, thanks a bunch, and apologies for the tardy response.
Jon

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#44

Post by RichTO90 » 13 Jan 2005, 17:05

JonS wrote:Hi Rich,
The 22 VCs per Bde still has me foxed though. I am not questioning the total, just wondering how that then breaks down by regt and sqn. Presumably the non-DD regt in each bde maintained the normal org of 4 per sqn, giving 12 in that regt. But that only leaves 5 for each of the DD regts ... which doesn't 'fit' in any kind of balanced way. 1 per sqn, plus 2 in sqn HQ maybe.

Again, thanks a bunch, and apologies for the tardy response.
Jon
Hi Jon, yes it is odd. What I have found so far is that for the assault itself all DD "squadrons" were organized with 20 DD tanks, five on each of four LCT III, thus 40 in each sector a DD regiment assaulted. Obviously they had really monkeyed about with the standard squadron organization. And it appears that each of the two DD squadrons in the regiment also deployed 2 Fireflies on the LCT (CB), accounting for four in the regiment, leaving one to wonder where the last one went - regimental HQ? And how was the third non-DD squadron in the regiment and the regimental HQ organized? In most cases they came in on later waves on LCT IV, which meant they were likely limited to four per LCT. One clue is that I seem to remember a photo from SWORD showing a lone Firefly from 15/18 Hussars (IIRC) loaded with three non-Firefly, non-DD tanks and a couple of softskins.

JonS
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#45

Post by JonS » 14 Jan 2005, 09:18

RichTO90 wrote:it appears that each of the two DD squadrons in the regiment also deployed 2 Fireflies on the LCT (CB), accounting for four in the regiment
Wait - I thought you said above that each regiment had two VCs on the LCT(CB), not two from each squadron? Gah! this just gets more baffling :(

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