Commonwealth TOE's vs British ones?

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Gary Kennedy
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Re: Commonwealth TOE's vs British ones?

Postby Gary Kennedy » 11 Mar 2018 17:01

Cheers David, looks like a mix of Inf and Mot Bns WEs in some respects. I did email the SA archives some years back but don't think I ever received an answer. Kind of thing you need a 'tame researcher' for really.

Gary

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David W
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Re: Commonwealth TOE's vs British ones?

Postby David W » 11 Mar 2018 17:48

I've found this as well......

SOUTH AFRICAN MACHINE GUN BATTALION. 824. 0. 14. 48. 14. 0. 0. 0. 0. 0. 0.

David.

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Re: Commonwealth TOE's vs British ones?

Postby Dili » 11 Mar 2018 22:49

Thanks David. They are also called Regiments in SA

Btw i have found that like the SA Field artillery brigades being renamed to Fld Regiments - unknown by me if it implies a TOE change - , also the SA Reconnaissance Battalion changed name to SA Armored Car Recce Regiment - also unknown if implies a TOE change.

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David W
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Re: Commonwealth TOE's vs British ones?

Postby David W » 12 Mar 2018 07:59

I'll see what I can dig up.

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Urmel
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Re: Commonwealth TOE's vs British ones?

Postby Urmel » 12 Mar 2018 10:58

I doubt the South Africans really ran armoured car units with 112 cars.
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Commonwealth TOE's vs British ones?

Postby Sid Guttridge » 12 Mar 2018 13:52

Hi Urmel,

It certainly seems possible, as the South Africans built them by the thousands.

If you look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmon-He ... moured_Car you will see that some 4,500 Marmon-Herrington armoured cars were used by the South Africans, and rather more built by them.It rather looks as though they came to have far more than they could usefully employ!

Cheers,

Sid.

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Urmel
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Re: Commonwealth TOE's vs British ones?

Postby Urmel » 12 Mar 2018 14:41

Well I’ve got one instance where two coys and battalion HQ drive around in 49 cars. I let you do the maths. :milwink:
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

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David W
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Re: Commonwealth TOE's vs British ones?

Postby David W » 12 Mar 2018 19:19

Plenty here to sift through!

http://samilitaryhistory.org/journal.html

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David.

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David W
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Re: Commonwealth TOE's vs British ones?

Postby David W » 12 Mar 2018 19:22

Sid/Urmel.

The 3rd Company. 7th South African Recce Battalion, was at times used as training unit and had around 40 to 55 cars at times.

Knouterer
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Re: Commonwealth TOE's vs British ones?

Postby Knouterer » 12 Mar 2018 19:27

A couple of "war establishments" for SA armoured car/recon units, from 1941 and 1942. The first does indeed indicated 112 cars, proably Marmon-Herringtons. The second has 76 cars armed with 2-pdr guns, Humbers most likely?

http://www.warestablishments.net/SAReconnaissance.html
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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David W
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Re: Commonwealth TOE's vs British ones?

Postby David W » 12 Mar 2018 19:29

No, not Humbers, at least not with 2pdrs. If the 2 Pdr is correct then Daimlers or AECs

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Re: Commonwealth TOE's vs British ones?

Postby Knouterer » 13 Mar 2018 10:59

Right, the Humber (Mk IV) carried an American 37 mm gun ... The Marmon-Herrington Mk IV had a two-man turret with a 2pdr, but did not appear before 1943 it seems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmon-He ... moured_Car
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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Urmel
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Re: Commonwealth TOE's vs British ones?

Postby Urmel » 13 Mar 2018 11:51

David W wrote:Sid/Urmel.

The 3rd Company. 7th South African Recce Battalion, was at times used as training unit and had around 40 to 55 cars at times.


Question is if they ever went into the field with it.

76 works perfectly with my example. 3x24 in squadrons, 4x in HQ. So I would guess that was 7 SA Recce org in late 1941. Which raises a question about the link posted above...
The excellence of [German] forward repair and recovery organisation gives us a salutary lesson in this respect. 7 Armoured Division report, Sept. 1941

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle in the Desert 1941/42

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Commonwealth TOE's vs British ones?

Postby Sid Guttridge » 13 Mar 2018 18:53

Hi Guys,

As knouterer said, the Mk IV Marmon-Herrington armoured car had a 2-pdr:

"Mk IV (1943)
The Mark IV was a completely redesigned vehicle, though still based on the same engine and Marmon-Herrington components. The rear-mounted engine and the transmission were bolted directly to the welded hull.[5] Armour protection was still thin at only 12 mm to the front and 6 mm thick elsewhere. A QF 2 pounder anti-tank gun was mounted in a two-man turret. The gun used an artillery mounting as the turret was not up to the stress of a tank mantlet mounting. Late production vehicles had a coaxial Browning MG. An anti-aircraft Vickers or Browning MG was mounted on the turret roof. Over 2,000 units built. After the war many Jordanian examples had the turret lengthened at the front and fitted with a 6 pounder (57mm) gun, while others had the turret removed and a Vickers 2.95" mountain howitzer fitted in its place.
"

Cheers,

Sid.

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David W
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Re: Commonwealth TOE's vs British ones?

Postby David W » 13 Mar 2018 19:22

Hi Urmel.

""Question is if they ever went into the field with it.""

Almost certainly not.


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