I was looking through the wiki talk page and there is a lot of debate in past discussions.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Op ... 4)#outcome
I know Goodwood and Epsom are contentious but Jupiter seemed like a more clear British defeat to me, so I’m surprised of the debate.
Operation Jupiter: British victory or defeat?
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Re: Operation Jupiter: British victory or defeat?
It all depends on how you see the campaign. If it is a series of unconnected and random engagements then I suppose you could pick a 'winner' and a 'loser' for each individual battle. . If however it is a coordinated series off offensives aimed at attriting the enemy and keeping him reacting to your moves until he is forced to retreat (i.e 'lose') then it is a different matter.
In these type of discussions it is usual to see it as as a series of unconnected battles and thus give the Germans the credit for 'winning' tactically (the 'didn't they do well' myth) whilst ignoring their strategic loss.
In these type of discussions it is usual to see it as as a series of unconnected battles and thus give the Germans the credit for 'winning' tactically (the 'didn't they do well' myth) whilst ignoring their strategic loss.
Re: Operation Jupiter: British victory or defeat?
Why not both at the same time?Michael Kenny wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 07:43It all depends on how you see the campaign. If it is a series of unconnected and random engagements then I suppose you could pick a 'winner' and a 'loser' for each individual battle. . If however it is a coordinated series off offensives aimed at attriting the enemy and keeping him reacting to your moves until he is forced to retreat (i.e 'lose') then it is a different matter.
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Re: Operation Jupiter: British victory or defeat?
The historiography of the Normandy campaign seems replete with narratives that do exactly that for British operations but not so much for US operations (and never for German operations!).Michael Kenny wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 07:43It all depends on how you see the campaign. If it is a series of unconnected and random engagements then I suppose you could pick a 'winner' and a 'loser' for each individual battle.
Is that because the British gave individual code names to their operations whereas the US and Germans did not - or did they? Are there US equivalents to Perch, Epsom, Jupiter, GOODWOOD, Pomegranate, Totalise, etc? Did the US drive across the peninsula or on Cherbourg have code names? Did US Corps level offensives in early July each have an individual code name? Or did the US jump straight from Overlord/Neptune to Cobra?
Regards
Tom