Story of Churchill distrust for De Gaulle emerges...

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Lord Gort
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Story of Churchill distrust for De Gaulle emerges...

Post by Lord Gort » 24 Jul 2003 13:39

While Britain bankrolled resistance movements across Europe during the war, Churchill refused to fund those connected with the future French President

A note from Churchill to SOE suggested that de Gaulle would use the money for his own political ends: "It is imperative to prevent General de Gaulle from having the slightest control over money from the British Exchequer," he wrote in a document dated June 19, 1943. Yesterday’s release of papers also demonstrates the expertise of the SOE forgers who ensured that its agents could continue to operate undetected.

Among the papers was a faked passport for Adolf Hitler, stamped on the outside with a large ’J’ by its forgers to denote that he was Jewish, and inside with a stamp on behalf of the Department of Migration for the Government of Palestine.




This is taken from Pycho Mikes link on SOE plots during the war.


Its incredible. Why did Churchill and Roosevelt distrust De Gaulle.



regards,

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David C. Clarke
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Post by David C. Clarke » 24 Jul 2003 14:58

Hi Mike, that's an interesting question. Much of it revolves around DeGaulle's personality, he firmly believed in the "Grandeur of La France" and, except for the situation he was thrust into, wasn't regarded by Chruchill as being particularly "pro-British". Also, DeGaulle's political credentials weren't too impressive prior to the war in France, and there was some concern about how deep his support was among the French People. The early history of DeGaulle is a constant struggle by him for recognition as an equal ally to the British and Americans, which was a remarkable position, since he wasn't an elected French politician. Also, the position of any Frenchman who had chosen exile over staying in France was undermined by the subsequent actions of the Vichy government, whose "neutrality" harmed British military interests in North Africa and the Mediterranean. DeGaulle also had a difficult personality and was considered to be entirely too arrogant in some quarters.

I welcome any comments to what I have written, as I don't claim any particular expertise in this area and have no intention to offend anyone by this post.

Best Regards, David

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Re: Story of Churchill distrust for De Gaulle emerges...

Post by jacobite1 » 24 Jul 2003 16:39

Its incredible. Why did Churchill and Roosevelt distrust De Gaulle.



How about because he was not worthy of any such trust ?
Look at his attitude towards Britain after WW2, tried mightily to keep Britain out of the EEC. Also look at France's attitude towards USA, still exists to-day...... You can always depend on France, she is always there when she needs us

More seriously, if you want to see why the French hate the English read any history of the Hundred Years War

I am a Brit living in Australia

Dave Moffitt

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Tom Niefer
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Post by Tom Niefer » 24 Jul 2003 19:01

Myself I think he was just an Anglophobe if there can be such a thing. He stuck his nose in Canadian politics during the 60's which kind of pissed me off. I don't expect thanks for Canadian fought battles in France during WWI and II but a lttle respect would be OK. I don't like it when leaders go to other countries and spew their own nationalistic BS.

Cheers,
Tom

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Post by alsaco » 27 Jul 2003 19:23

The question of relations between Roosevelt, Churchill and De Gaulle can not be treated just by reference to sentiments.

We have in France some heavy, 600 pages books on the subject.

The story is very complicated, and I suggest to avoid jumping to the conclusions.

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Re: Story of Churchill distrust for De Gaulle emerges...

Post by fdewaele » 01 Aug 2003 16:17

jacobite1 wrote:How about because he was not worthy of any such trust ?
Look at his attitude towards Britain after WW2, tried mightily to keep Britain out of the EEC. Also look at France's attitude towards USA, still exists to-day...... You can always depend on France, she is always there when she needs us
There are many people in Europe who think that De Gaulle was right to veto British entrance in the EU because they would only enter to sabotage things. This has been proven to be correct. Also the fact that he was treated badly might have influenced his distrust in British and American politicians. Also France's stance during the past Iraqi crisis was one follwoed by the majority of European citizens.

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Re: Story of Churchill distrust for De Gaulle emerges...

Post by Lars EP » 05 Aug 2003 20:51

jacobite1 wrote:Its incredible. Why did Churchill and Roosevelt distrust De Gaulle.



How about because he was not worthy of any such trust ?
Look at his attitude towards Britain after WW2, tried mightily to keep Britain out of the EEC. Also look at France's attitude towards USA, still exists to-day...... You can always depend on France, she is always there when she needs us

More seriously, if you want to see why the French hate the English read any history of the Hundred Years War

I am a Brit living in Australia

Dave Moffitt
For a Brit living in Australia, you surely manage to fuel your nationalism well. After a well-balanced and reasonably enlightening answer from David C. Clarke, you have to throw in that garbage.

De Gaulle was extremely arrogant, proud and despised the lack of trust he was shown from especcially Churchill. However, he was also intelligent, a stong leader and gradually became a unifying figure for France.

Before the war, he at several occasions warned the French government, that in the light of Heinz Guderian's book "Achtung Panzer" the Maginot-line was a folly. He also suggested a reorganisation of the the French armour into divisions... that would have been interesting.

So all together, he had his pro's and con's like anybody else, but to say he was not worthy of trust... :roll:

Regards --- Lars

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Re: Story of Churchill distrust for De Gaulle emerges...

Post by tigre » 22 Jan 2023 23:49

Hello to all :D; Here are some interesting points.....

De Gaulle, Churchill and the Levant.

The Syria - Lebanon campaign represented a stark turning point in the relationship between De Gaulle and Churchill, thereafter complicating their operations throughout the war. Above all, the Levant campaign highlighted Free France’s marginality and the weak position De Gaulle had been in – though he tried not to admit it – throughout the entire war.

In a Chicago Daily News interview at the end of August 1941, De Gaulle showed just how personally he took the outcomes of the Levant events. He belittled Churchill and made him look incompetent when he claimed that Britain feared the French fleet. Churchill commented on the interview in a note to Lyttelton: “If De Gaulle interview with the American Press at Brazzaville is authentic, he has clearly gone off his head. This would be a very good riddance and will simplify our further course. De Gaulle has put himself entirely out of court.

De Gaulle’s political defeat at Syria, then, was troublesome precisely because it emphasized these perceptions he had hoped to overcome. Militarily, they did accomplish the objective. The armistice agreement was what betrayed De Gaulle so deeply. Instead of Vichy soldiers being allowed to switch their allegiance to Free France, they were repatriated to Europe.

Source: Personalities and Perceptions: Churchill, De Gaulle, and British-Free French Relations 1940-1941. Samantha Sullivan
LIFE 28 Jul 1941

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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Re: Story of Churchill distrust for De Gaulle emerges...

Post by LineDoggie » 24 Jan 2023 21:00

Lord Gort wrote:
24 Jul 2003 13:39




Its incredible. Why did Churchill and Roosevelt distrust De Gaulle.



they were perceptive?
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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Re: Story of Churchill distrust for De Gaulle emerges...

Post by Loïc » 24 Jan 2023 21:27

with fully justified reciprocity, the number of times they wished eliminated him throughout and also, after the war including physically for the successors of the second in order to convert the country in an other one of their Banana Republic

Avec de tels amis on n'a point besoin d'ennemis With friends like that you don't need enemies

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Re: Story of Churchill distrust for De Gaulle emerges...

Post by CogCalgary » 24 Jan 2023 22:39

tigre wrote:
22 Jan 2023 23:49
Hello to all :D; Here are some interesting points.....

De Gaulle, Churchill and the Levant.

The Syria - Lebanon campaign represented a stark turning point in the relationship between De Gaulle and Churchill, thereafter complicating their operations throughout the war. Above all, the Levant campaign highlighted Free France’s marginality and the weak position De Gaulle had been in – though he tried not to admit it – throughout the entire war.

In a Chicago Daily News interview at the end of August 1941, De Gaulle showed just how personally he took the outcomes of the Levant events. He belittled Churchill and made him look incompetent when he claimed that Britain feared the French fleet. Churchill commented on the interview in a note to Lyttelton: “If De Gaulle interview with the American Press at Brazzaville is authentic, he has clearly gone off his head. This would be a very good riddance and will simplify our further course. De Gaulle has put himself entirely out of court.

De Gaulle’s political defeat at Syria, then, was troublesome precisely because it emphasized these perceptions he had hoped to overcome. Militarily, they did accomplish the objective. The armistice agreement was what betrayed De Gaulle so deeply. Instead of Vichy soldiers being allowed to switch their allegiance to Free France, they were repatriated to Europe.

Source: Personalities and Perceptions: Churchill, De Gaulle, and British-Free French Relations 1940-1941. Samantha Sullivan
LIFE 28 Jul 1941

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
Based on what the father-in-law told me and some info Lupo Solitario posted on this forum the change in allegiance was swift and absolute.Some nasty things occurred on both sides.Very hard feelings there.

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Re: Story of Churchill distrust for De Gaulle emerges...

Post by Fatboy Coxy » 25 Jan 2023 15:57

Don't know too much about this but, while De Gaulle was promoting himself as the leader of the Free French in late 1940, Britain was still trying to negotiate with both France based Vichy and Colonial officials to get them onside. So while most of the French didn't support De Gaulle, it made sense not to cuddle up with him too closely, dangling the carrot of French leader to an alternative. That seems most sensible to me, but would clearly not go down well with De Gaulle.

And if I remember correctly, come the Torch landings in November 1942, the Allies courted Admiral Darlan, who was in Algiers at the time, with the purpose of getting him onside. De Gaulle was quite incapable of that, him and Darlan clearly being rivals for the role of leader of the French. I understand personal characteristics of individuals may make them harder to get along with, but given the position De Gaulle was in, in relation to Allied leaders, surely relations were always going to be difficult.
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Fatboy Coxy

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Re: Story of Churchill distrust for De Gaulle emerges...

Post by LineDoggie » 25 Jan 2023 18:21

Loïc wrote:
24 Jan 2023 21:27
with fully justified reciprocity, the number of times they wished eliminated him throughout and also, after the war including physically for the successors of the second in order to convert the country in an other one of their Banana Republic

Avec de tels amis on n'a point besoin d'ennemis With friends like that you don't need enemies
LOL what a hysteric claim. De Gaulle was unliked by allied leaders because he was pompous to the Nth degree, obstinate like a mule, interfered in Allied operations to satisfy his ego and though he claimed to be the voice of Free France who said he actually was? there was other leaders just as talented whom he pushed away and more than a little political opposition to the self proclaimed leader. Look to his vastly successful retaining of Frenchmen rescued from Dunkirk and how few wanted to stay under his command


Banana republic? like Algeria & Morocco were? like Polynesia & Mayotte are?
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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Loïc
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Re: Story of Churchill distrust for De Gaulle emerges...

Post by Loïc » 25 Jan 2023 19:02

what a non-sense the so-called "Frenchmen rescued from Dunkirk" who could "stay under the command of de Gaulle"
These so-called "Frenchmen rescued from Dunkirk" not staying with de Gaulle were almost all landed in Normandy and Britanny where they fought or being reorganized in their French regimental depots while the 18th june came and for a great number of them passed the 5 following years in the stalags, 10 300 still in England, mainly sailors, were assaulted by the Royal Navy and Royal Marines and sent behind a triple network of barbed wire under electric tension and watchtowers with armed sentinels
Banana republic? like Algeria & Morocco were? like Polynesia & Mayotte are?
rather Haïti Nicaragua Cuba Panama Dominican Republic until Irak and Afghanistan few months ago?

the connoisseurs and historians call that the hysteric "Secret Thirty Years War" of the US against de Gaulle, very interesting recent TV documentary - "de Gaulle the marked man" -
The hostility of the United States towards General de Gaulle is not a secret anymore. Successive American administrations tried everything to subdue him without ever succeeding, using media manipulations or clandestine financing of his opponents to name a few strategies.

The showdown between the General and the USA would last 30 years.

This film explains the reasons behind this antagonism thanks to declassified archives and new testimonies. For the first time, it is now possible to recount this secret war that pitted de Gaulle against America from 1940 to 1969.

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Re: Story of Churchill distrust for De Gaulle emerges...

Post by LineDoggie » 25 Jan 2023 20:03

Loïc wrote:
25 Jan 2023 19:02

rather Haïti Nicaragua Cuba Panama Dominican Republic until Irak and Afghanistan few months ago?
We didnt annex Irak, Afghanistan, Haiti, Cuba, Panama, or the DR as part of the USA, you lot did annex Algeria and Morocco, Mayotte as part of france proper
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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