Bomber Command

[b_c_ries]

It is apparant to me that the Germans did employ terror bombing and that they would have done it more if they had the ability to do so. They utilized terror bombing in Guernica during the Spanish Civil War, The V-1 and the V-2 were not accurate at all and were used to kill civilians more than anything else. During WW1 the Zepplins and the Paris gun didn't perform any militarily useful function other than to terrorize civilians in an attempt to reduce allied morale. I think that the Axis powers believed that their 'strength of will' would enable them to defeat the Allies. I also believe a strong component of this 'strength of will' is indifference to the suffering of people both friendly neutral and enemy. It seems the Axis powers were surprised when their 'weak willed' enemies could also be indifferent to the suffering of German civilians, I supposed they were appalled that these lesser people could not recognize the superiority of the master race. The impression that I got from the WW2 USAAF vets I've met is that nobody needed to trick them into fighting the Nazis.

[WaistGunner]

Some strange words from Logan Hartke, I think you should speak with some Vets and learn the truth. We (452d BG) were not tricked into Daylight raids, we did what we did best and the British RAF did what they did best, we lost many young lives but I think from my reading they maybe lost more. I did not envy them the extra danger of flying at night.

The bomber war was started by Hitler's Luftwaffe and we and the British RAF proved ourselves better and kicked their *****.

We all served with a wish to live and for the war to finish as quickly as possible, casualties to the enemy result in the war finishing. My neighbor was a B-24 Ball Gunner and talking about this at Thanksgiving we would have dropped any type of bomb on the Germans that made the war finish so we could go home, we were just happy to survive.

Andy
Waist Gunner
452d BG

[Maple 01]

Welcome WaistGunner, don't forget to watch your six! The Nazis didn't gow away in 1945 Feel free to add your 2 cents to the 'Was Churchill a war criminal' thread (big thing on Dresden)

Unit History
Constituted as 452d Bombardment Group (Heavy) on 14 May 1943. Activated on 1 Jun 1943. Trained with B-17's. Moved to England, Dec 1943-Jan 1944, and assigned to Eighth AF. Entered combat on 5 Feb 1944 with an attack against aircraft assembly plants at Brunswick. Throughout combat, engaged primarily in bombardment of strategic targets, including marshalling yards at Frankfurt, aircraft assembly plants at Regensburg, aircraft component works at Kassel, the ball-bearing industry at Schweinfurt, a synthetic rubber plant at Hannover, and oil installations at Bohlen. 1st Lt Donald Gott and 2d Lt William E Metzger Jr were each awarded the Medal of Honor for remaining with their aircraft (crippled during a mission over Germany on 9 Nov 1944) in an attempt to save a wounded crew member who was unable to bail out; the men were killed when the B-17 exploded in midair. In addition to strategic missions, the 452d supported ground forces and carried out interdictory operations. Helped prepare for the invasion of Normandy by hitting airfields, V-weapon sites, bridges, and other objectives in France; struck coastal defenses on D-Day, 6 Jun 1944. Bombed enemy positions in support of the breakthrough at St Lo in Jul and the offensive against Brest in Aug and Sep. Later in Sep, assisted the airborne attack on Holland. Hit enemy communications in and near the combat zone during the Battle of the Bulge, Dec 1944-Jan 1945. Bombed an airfield in support of the airborne assault across the Rhine in Mar 1945. Received a DUC for action on 7 Apr 1945 when, despite vigorous fighter attacks and heavy flak, it accurately bombed a jet-fighter base at Kaltenkirchen. Flew last combat mission of World War II [in Europe] on 21 Apr, striking marshalling yards at Ingolstadt. Returned to the US in Aug. Inactivated on 28 Aug 1945.

Regards


-Nick

[Marcus]

WaistGunner,

It is always very interesting to hear a vets view on the events, thanks and once again welcome to the forum.

/Marcus

[Aufklarung]

Just a small point on who regularly precision bombed.

US bombers at 25,000 feet in box formations dropping 'on the leader' or

RAF Bombers at 12,000 feet travelling in a stream and releasing their own bombs on target using H2S radar 8) .

Tell me which is more accurate.

You need to read up some more on the Bomber offensive throughout the war, Logan. I'm sorry you dislike Brits based on erroneous info and beliefs.

Regards
A

[Maple 01]

Logan, and anyone else with an interest in this subject for that matter,

I recomend the book 'Bomber' by Len Deighton

he interviewed hunderds of vets form the RAF, Luftwaffe and British and German civilians and read 200 books to make sure everything was accurate.

No, I'm not his agent!

Regards

-Nick

[Andy H]

Logan wrote

I must say, have a severe loathing for 80% of British military men at General level or higher, and a 95% loathing for British politicians for the number of times they screwed over their Commonwealth and the Americans. One such occasian is when the British gave the Americans daylight bombing because they couldn't handle it. Their aircraft weren't as well defended or as accurate, that's why they took night bombing, leaving more Americans to die in the 8th Air Force than the entire Marine Corps lost in the Pacific. The British were getting mauled trying to bomb in the daytime, so they handed the job over to the Americans like a bunh of yellow-bellied so and so's. I don't give the RAF Bomber Command any credit, and I never will. The actual bomber pilots were brave, because the night bombing was dangerous, too, and it wasn't their decision to bomb at night, but as far as RAF Bomber Command, I find them to be a bunch of cowards compared to the American 8th Air Force pilots that they sent to their deaths.

I must have missed this crap first time round. Everyone is entilled to there opinion but Logan your credibility just nosedived. How can you be a moderator on allied equipment when you have such a xenophobic almost racist attitude towards the British. How can you have a balanced viewpoint when you spout this crap. Do you truly believe this

The only bit that is correct is

The British were getting mauled trying to bomb in the daytime,

and upon realising this they essentially gave up on daylight bombing even before the US joined in the war. Also the USAAF were on the brink of suspending daylight raids due to heavy losses but for the advent of the Mustang.

Angry from the Shire

[Andy H]

For a balanced viewpoint, warts and all of the Allied air campaign against Germany purchase "The Bomber War" by Robin Neilands

Andy from the Shire

[subskipper]

For a balanced viewpoint, warts and all of the Allied air campaign against Germany purchase "The Bomber War" by Robin Neilands

:D Andy from the Shire

I second that. It was even better on the second read. :-)



~Henric Edwards

[Peter]

Henric and Andy
Yes guys, an excellent read and very accurate.

Logan Hartke -
check your facts mate, the British and Americans both did important work towards ending the war, you dont hear us criticising your forces.

I dont reckon I'd fancy flying in a Lancaster or Halifax at night or in a Liberator or B17 in daylight, I believe that both air forces will have done their level best to hit their targets in the conditions facing them .


Pete

[Mark V]

I am with Andy H on this.

After all - we are talking about NW Europe here. The weather is (very) rarely perfect, and so many of the mission flew by 8th Air Force were done with blind-bombing with radar, because the lack of ground view - difference to the night bombing - nonexistant.

Also German night fighters were dangerous enough. In daytime it is possible to effectively cover your bombers with escort fighters if you had enough of them (and US did have after early 1944), on the other hand night bombers are on their own - protected only by limitations of enemys radar and effectiveness of your radar countermeasures.

[Peter]

The effectiveness of the Luftwaffe night fighter force is very clearly proven by the achievements of Major Wolfgang Schnaufer, Helmut Lent, Prince Heinrich zu Sayn-Wittgenstein, Manfred Meurer - the night sky was not a safe place to be.

Pete

[Mark V]

The effectiveness of the Luftwaffe night fighter force is very clearly proven by the achievements of Major Wolfgang Schnaufer, Helmut Lent, Prince Heinrich zu Sayn-Wittgenstein, Manfred Meurer - the night sky was not a safe place to be.

Pete

And in any day i would be a poor scared member of B-17 crew - protected by hundreds of .50 MGs of our formation plus my own two .50 - and x-hundred P-47s and P-51s escort fighters.

.....than being a poor scared member of Halifax crew - alone in the cold of the night - armed with 2 or 4 puny .303 - and you can't see the enemy !! - but it can see you... and is coming closer to the kill - and he has 30mm pneumatic-hammers to end up your sorry existance in this world....

Which needs more bravery ?? - not a tough question....



----------------------

And want to add - it was the British bomber that carried more bombs to the target in this mission....

[Peter]

Mark
I live in England and it would be easy for me to say that the RAF boys had a tough time at night, the casualty figures prove this, but I live in East Anglia where the 8th USAAF flew from and I know enough of the war to say that the Mighty Eighth also suffered terrible casualties.

Nobody has mentioned so far that the RAF's No.2 Group also operated in daylight flying low level missions over Europe in Blenheim's, Boston's and Mitchell's. They lost a lot of aircraft and airmen.

RAF Bomber Command Main Force operated in Daylight on occasion also, Augsburg, Le Creusot, etc, etc. RAF Special Duties flights actually landed in occupied Europe to pick-up and put down secret agents.

I'd hate to suggest that either British or US air forces had the hardest time, it would be as superficial and insulting to their memory as suggesting that one was more proficient at hitting targets than the other.

I think that we owe these young men a huge debt which should not be forgotten.

cheers
Pete

[Mark V]

I'd hate to suggest that either British or US air forces had the hardest time, it would be as superficial and insulting to their memory as suggesting that one was more proficient at hitting targets than the other.

I think that we owe these young men a huge debt which should not be forgotten.
cheers
Pete

Agree.

Both had hard times - alltought i would prefer to serve with 8th Air Force...


My post was just answer for this:

but as far as RAF Bomber Command, I find them to be a bunch of cowards compared to the American 8th Air Force pilots that they sent to their deaths.

I think you agree me on this...