Bomber Command

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Peter
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#61

Post by Peter » 29 Dec 2002, 16:50

I'd recommend

Mighty Eighth by Roger Freeman
Mighty Eighth War Diaries by Roger Freeman
Bomber Command War Diary by Martin Middlebrook

cheers
Pete

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#62

Post by subskipper » 29 Dec 2002, 17:24

Iltis wrote:I'd recommend

Mighty Eighth by Roger Freeman
Mighty Eighth War Diaries by Roger Freeman
Bomber Command War Diary by Martin Middlebrook

cheers
Pete
Thanks, I'll give them all look.


~Henric Edwards


Peter
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#63

Post by Peter » 29 Dec 2002, 18:16

Henric, if you want something which names the men and brings home the real human tragedy of it all I'd recommend

Valley of the Shadow of Death by J Alwyn Phillips (Air Research Publications) its a big book but as it is split into sections dealing with a series of air raids incident by incident and naming the men involved, it is very readable.

Good luck
Pete

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#64

Post by subskipper » 29 Dec 2002, 21:41

Iltis wrote:Henric, if you want something which names the men and brings home the real human tragedy of it all I'd recommend

Valley of the Shadow of Death by J Alwyn Phillips (Air Research Publications) its a big book but as it is split into sections dealing with a series of air raids incident by incident and naming the men involved, it is very readable.

Good luck
Pete
That sounds very interesting indeed. Unfortunately it seems to be very hard to find. Any suggestions on where to look for it?



~Henric Edwards

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#65

Post by Peter » 30 Dec 2002, 11:33

I was sure they had a website but otherwise drop them a line at

Air Research Publications
34 Elm Rd
New Malden
Surrey
KT3 3HD


Pete

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#66

Post by Peter » 30 Dec 2002, 11:39


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#67

Post by subskipper » 30 Dec 2002, 17:47

Superb! Many thanks.



~Henric Edwards

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Lord Gort
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#68

Post by Lord Gort » 03 Jan 2003, 00:33

Well, when my British collegues told me that Logan was making a small fool of himself i didnt believe it.

However I seem to get the impression as does every one else that you believe that the British forced the USAF to fly daytime raids. Well ignoring the fact the Americans to theire ultimate and dying shame ignored virtually all British advice during the war but however were content to use our radar etc decided in there almighty wisdom that there Flying Fortresses were impregnable and need not Fighter escorts. Well considerin the incredible losses of bombers the USAF suffered we all know that. The British went by night to prevent losses and because they were the only pilots with the skill to do night bombing.


I also listened to a documentary where a Yank Airforce general called Ismay i think said that when American force bombed Japanese cities they did Precision bombing and the other damage was collatarrel damage.

Oh and Bomber Harris did not pioneer the massive bombing of cities. Ther Germans did at......Rotterdam, Guernica, Belgrade, Warsaw...........almost 5o cities.


In the end we fought the bombing war together and your accusation that the British were yellow belly is a slur and insult to the memory of the thousands who gave their lives in the RAF and other armed services.

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#69

Post by Aufklarung » 03 Jan 2003, 00:41

Lord Gort
As Marcus said earlier, Logan must answer for his accusations. I think alot of us are aware and waiting for that response. Your points a very valid but we already know this. Logan appears to be away for now so let us wait and see, OK. In his support, his posts till now have been informed and relevant. Maybe his girl left him for a Brit. :?

A :D

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#70

Post by Lord Gort » 03 Jan 2003, 00:51

I apologise fully for repeating any points made, and I wish this thread to remain civilised.

Air Vice Marshal J.E JOHNSON CB.CBE,DSO,DFC,DL says that the eighth airforce chose to fly by day because they speacilised only in daylight precision bombing.


I await Logans reply with Trepidation and warn him that it may be easiar than he thinks in any heated reply to dishonour the memory of thousands of British pilots.

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#71

Post by Caldric » 03 Jan 2003, 00:52

That was months and months ago when he stated that. I think I understand what he was saying it just did not come out correctly. Did not know the Brits were still steaming over that one. There were other external pressures at the time also against Americans, some of which were made by British, I do not doubt some of the venom was left over from other threads.

Logan is always a good source for information, perhaps he will take a look at his post from almost a year ago.

I do know the US used day light to be more accurate and these issues were of no concern with the RAF as long as Germans were dying it seemed they were ok with Night Bombing.

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#72

Post by Phil C » 03 Jan 2003, 01:07

Caldric i dont think Logan needs an apologist but it would be for the benefit of everybody if he was to either justify his claims or apologise. If it is just a question of a misunderstanding or comments passed in the heat of the moment without too much thought then Logan is the best person to respond, especially as it wouldn't take too much of his time.

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#73

Post by Mark V » 03 Jan 2003, 01:14

Phil C wrote:Caldric i dont think Logan needs an apologist but it would be for the benefit of everybody if he was to either justify his claims or apologise.
I don't think he has been here for some time now. I am sure that he would otherwise responded allready. I also think, like Caldric, that it did not come out like he would have wanted. I decline to believe otherwise.

I think this is enough about this until Logan returns...

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#74

Post by Maple 01 » 03 Jan 2003, 01:44

Hi Caldric,
Did not know the Brits were still steaming over that one. There were other external pressures at the time also against Americans, some of which were made by British, I do not doubt some of the venom was left over from other threads.
I think you'll find this to be a sore point because the matter is personal to so many Brits, Bomber command lost 55,000 men, men drawn from the four corners of the Empire, Australians, Canadians New Zealanders and others, also not to be forgotten are the Free forces of occupied Europe and volunteers from Ireland, ashamed at Dev's neutral stance during the war. However, the main burden fell on the British themselves of course, the population of the UK at the time was about 50,000,000 so nearly everyone had a brother, uncle, son or husband who were risking their lives over the continent on a regular basis. Even today the ghosts of the RAF and USAAF airfields are to be seen all over rural England.

In normal land combat casualties were spread across a cross section of society, however the Bomber offensive required skills that were at a premium, even in an advanced western society such as Britain. Aircrew were all volunteers and only the brightest and best were selected, the very people who would under normal circumstances be expected to be the ones to build the future of Britain. By 1941 most of the Public School types were long dead, it was the turn Grammar school boys to face the reaper.

Chances of survival were slim, to give an example, Leonard Cheshire completed over 100 ops and was the exception - the average expectancy was 10-15 before death or captivity. The point is the bomber crew knew the odds and still kept on with the job.

It's no just the deaths that cost so dearly, many good men were 'used up' by the war, while this was true of many of the combatants, it was particularly so in the case of the aircrew. The strains of the Bomber offensive left many survivors unable to cope with normal life post-war which led to divorces, violence and suicides. The term posttraumatic stress hadn’t been coined then but the cases were real enough.

Bearing all this in mind you can perhaps see how someone sitting at home 60 years after the event, and, judging by his profile, someone who has never heard a shot fired in anger, passing judgment on a generation who gave so much might raise a few hackles. IMO the fact that someone may have upset the ‘poor lamb’ elsewhere doesn’t explain away his actions.

I’ve said many things about the American bomber offensive, most of it positive, but however strongly I have felt about strategy I would never call the 8th and 9th AF cowards.

Regards

-Nick

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#75

Post by Caldric » 03 Jan 2003, 02:14

Preaching to the choir Nick, I know what the RAF did in WWII and have nothing but good words for them. All I am saying is that this was almost a year ago when this conversation was going on and I do remember it and was a bit shocked at what Logan had said. However, if I remember correctly he had a problem with the RAF High Command not the pilots or such. We all have our opinions, most people around here loath us Americans so once in a while it gets a bit annoying and we say things we would otherwise not.

And I apologise for no one, I was making an observation.

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