Why did the British abandon the 6 pounder as a Tank gun?

[zmija]

Likewise, American HVAP projectiles were produced at a rate of 10,000 per month from July 1944 to May 1945.

A friend of mine pointed me to another forum where I found this:

The 10,000 HVAP rounds for 3"/76mm produced in a month did not happen until November 44. It appears that the initial "small quantity" received in the European Theatre of Operations was part of the 1,000 T4 76mm rounds accepted in July. This was followed by the following production (3"/76mm T4)



M93/T4
Aug 44 1,000/0
Sep 44 1,000/1,000
Oct 44 2,000/1,000
Nov 44 5,000/5,000
Dec 44 5,000/5,000
Jan 45 7,000/6,000
Feb 45 6,000/6,000
Mar 45 3,000/9,000
Apr 45 3,000/5,000
May 45 Program Complete/6,000
Jun 45 0/6,000
Jul 45 0/6,000
Aug 45 0/6,000

[Delta Tank]

The Enigma,

I have been looking at two books recently and I get confused when reading the text. I think we need a chart of some sort, that lays out all the guns in the 75mm to 77mm range so that we are all talking about the same guns. I guess model numbers/marks would also help. And it may help to use bore diameters in mm versus poundage of shot.

Mike

[Michael Kenny]

To bring this discussion into a more technical realm should we not list the length of the bore in calibers and the muzzle velocity of the projectile at the muzzle................

Too complicated for what is a simple claim. i.e the 17 pdr/6 pdr were relatively useless as tank killers and performed no better than any other Allied gun in the 75mm to 90mm group

Also average tank to tank engagements in North West Europe?? 500 meters? a long shot was about 900 meters? Do any of you have data on this?

This is the conclusion of BRL Report No. 798 of 1945. (Available from Merriam Press http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/d ... ns/3343402)

In brief late '44/45 the ranges at which Allied tanks became casualties were 476-1260 yds and for German tanks it was 733-936 yds.

[Delta Tank]

Michael Kenny,

Thanks for the book recommendation, it looks very interesting.

Mike

[The_Enigma]

The Enigma,

I have been looking at two books recently and I get confused when reading the text. I think we need a chart of some sort, that lays out all the guns in the 75mm to 77mm range so that we are all talking about the same guns. I guess model numbers/marks would also help. And it may help to use bore diameters in mm versus poundage of shot.

Mike

I would have been able to rackle quite a few of these off the top of my head a few years ago ... now am looking through my books and its quite surprising to find how practically none mention the length in calibers ... other than for German ATGs!

Ok nosing around the net and some other bits and bobs:

British:

6 Pounder = 57mm L/43 and L/50 depending on version
British 75mm - 75mm - one would assume L/43 or L/50 depending what 6 pounder they rebored?
Vickers HV 75mm (aka the 77mm) - 75mm? cant find much on it but i recall it being somewhere in the rgion of L/50 but thats a stab in the dark
17 Pounder - 76.2 L/55

American:
M3 - 75mm/L/38
3 Inch gun - 76.2 mm L/??
M1 76mm - 76mm L/55 apparently

[Delta Tank]

British:
The Enigma,

The Enigma wrote: 6 Pounder = 57mm L/43 and L/50 depending on version
British 75mm - 75mm - one would assume L/43 or L/50 depending what 6 pounder they rebored?
Vickers HV 75mm (aka the 77mm) - 75mm? cant find much on it but i recall it being somewhere in the rgion of L/50 but thats a stab in the dark
17 Pounder - 76.2 L/55

American:
M3 - 75mm/L/38
3 Inch gun - 76.2 mm L/??
M1 76mm - 76mm L/55 apparently
The_Enigma

I don't have my books with me but I believe the 76 mm would be 76.2 mm also, not sure. I don't know why they refer to it as 76mm
Mike

[The_Enigma]

Because who wants to say point-two? Thats why we invented fancy words.... such as pounder wieght of the shot (or whatever) is merley concidence!

[RichTO90]

A friend of mine pointed me to another forum where I found this:

The 10,000 HVAP rounds for 3"/76mm produced in a month did not happen until November 44. It appears that the initial "small quantity" received in the European Theatre of Operations was part of the 1,000 T4 76mm rounds accepted in July. This was followed by the following production (3"/76mm T4)



M93/T4
Aug 44 1,000/0
Sep 44 1,000/1,000
Oct 44 2,000/1,000
Nov 44 5,000/5,000
Dec 44 5,000/5,000
Jan 45 7,000/6,000
Feb 45 6,000/6,000
Mar 45 3,000/9,000
Apr 45 3,000/5,000
May 45 Program Complete/6,000
Jun 45 0/6,000
Jul 45 0/6,000
Aug 45 0/6,000

What an odd thing to have become ones Internet legacy. I suppose in future I should only publish books with that information so as to ensure I continue to get credit for it? Lucky I'm not vain.

Seriously though, there is little evidence that British deliveries of 17-pdr SABOT was any more numerous. Buckley is correct that 6-pdr SABOT was available and issued pre-NEPTUNE, but it may not have been as "widespread" as he indicated. There are also some mention I have run across that issue of range cards was an issue initially. 17-pdr SABOT though is a different matter. It seems the initial shipment was the unproofed lot issued for the Balleroy and Isigny test. Later, in RAC Letter Number 3 from 29 December, it is mentioned (Para. 66) that "small quantities of "17-pr SVDS" (Super Velocity Discarding Sabot) had been received and that it was being tested in order to ensure "it was up to specification" - presumably meaning the accuracy problem was solved - "before it is put into operational use". That test is also described in the same letter (this time called "17-pr DS shot", Para. 77) as occuring 23 November. It was an accuracy test only, firing at screens at 800 yards with good results, but the test was limited by poor visibility during the day.

The implication was that 17-pdr SABOT (APDS/SVDS/DS shot) was not issued operationally until sometime after the 23 November-29 december timeframe, i.e. sometime in 1945. The smaller numbers of US 3-inch and 76mm HVAP were available slightly earlier, arriving in theater in fall 1944, so two or three months prior to the issue of 17-pdr APDS. OTOH, the only issue of 6-pdr/57mm APDS to US forces was whatever they could cadge from British sources. Furthermore, only very small quantities of 90mm HVAP were delivered in theater, with ZEBRA, and AFAICT no issues of 90mm T33 (the specially hardened rounds) were made before VE Day.

[EKB]

[Furthermore, only very small quantities of 90mm HVAP were delivered in theater, with ZEBRA, and AFAICT no issues of 90mm T33 (the specially hardened rounds) were made before VE Day.

According to my reference source, 90mm AP T33 shells were issued to 3rd Armored Division.

The Pershings destroyed several German tanks using this type of projectile, which was referred to specifically. Some of the victims were either photographed or filmed, including two Panzer IVs and the burning Panther seen in front of the Cologne Cathedral. Pershing #40 knocked out a Tiger I with a HVAP through the final drive followed by a T33 shot through the gun mantlet which triggered an explosion.

[EKB]

Also average tank to tank engagements in North West Europe?? 500 meters? a long shot was about 900 meters? Do any of you have data on this?

This is the conclusion of BRL Report No. 798 of 1945. (Available from Merriam Press http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/d ... ns/3343402)

In brief late '44/45 the ranges at which Allied tanks became casualties were 476-1260 yds and for German tanks it was 733-936 yds.

If you actually read this material before you posted a link you might have noticed that the report was based on a small sample, and therefore it is misleading.

[The_Enigma]

Wasnt the initial report you used to state the 17 pounder was just useless also based off a small sample hence misleading? In addition to the fact people pointed out you appeared to misread it... So its fine when it supports your position but not when it doesnt? :roll:

[Michael Kenny]

If you actually read this material before you posted a link you might have noticed that the report was based on a small sample, and therefore it is misleading.

Apart from being a 'summary of engagement ranges for 'tanks destroyed in the areas of combat presently considered' (engagements involving 3rd and 4th Armored Divisions' in late 44/45) and being based on a sample of 199 Allied and 140 Germans 'casualties'- total 339- how is it misleading?

Let us consult ORO-T-117 for confirmation of this 'misleading' information.

Table VIII 'Average Ranges At Which Tanks Were Immobolized.

All Theatres. sample of 800 Allied tanks. Average range 782 yards.

ETO, sample 644 tanks. Average range 804 yards
ETO US tanks. 452 tanks Average range 774 yards.
ETO UK tanks. 343 tanks Average range 797 yards.

BRL 798 and ORO-T-117 both seem to arrive at the same conclusion.
I await your corrections to this 'misleading' data.

[RichTO90]

According to my reference source, 90mm AP T33 shells were issued to 3rd Armored Division.

Okay, then it should be easy for you to post that reference source? Since I have not seen that referred to specifically in any of the documents I have perused relating to the ZEBRA Mission? There are the Ordnance photos of the tests of HVAP and T33 versus a Panther hulk at Aberdeen from January 1945, but that's it AFAIK? It is possible that initial production samples were sent with ZEBRA, in fact it seems logical, but I have not seen confirmation of that nor anything to indicate that it was ever issued to any other 90mm M3 Gun-armed units than the original 20 ZEBRA tanks? I'll re-review the documentation I have, but I've never run across that mention before.

BTW, at the range and angle the Panther in Cologne was destroyed, it could have as easily been done by a 3-inch, 76mm, 75mm, or 6-pdr...although the shooting on the move was very well done.

[RichTO90]

Let us consult ORO-T-117 for confirmation of this 'misleading' information.

Table VIII 'Average Ranges At Which Tanks Were Immobolized.

All Theatres. sample of 800 Allied tanks. Average range 782 yards.

ETO, sample 644 tanks. Average range 804 yards
ETO US tanks. 452 tanks Average range 774 yards.
ETO UK tanks. 343 tanks Average range 797 yards.

BRL 798 and ORO-T-117 both seem to arrive at the same conclusion.
I await your corrections to this 'misleading' data.

Sneaky Micheal, Sneaky. I was waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Even the BRL sample is pretty robust as far as samples go, although like most data taken from actual events it doesn't have the randomness that statisticians so lust after. The ORO sample is very robust and likely pretty random, since it pulled from data taken from all units during the entire campaign.

Cheers!

[The_Enigma]

According to my reference source, 90mm AP T33 shells were issued to 3rd Armored Division.

BTW, at the range and angle the Panther in Cologne was destroyed, it could have as easily been done by a 3-inch, 76mm, 75mm, or 6-pdr...although the shooting on the move was very well done.

The footage is all over the net, i would do a search for a particular site that details frame by frame the "battle" ... but am in work slacking off -SACK ME!!!!

IIRC it was several flanking shots - i seem to recall 3 - that resulted in the brew up, with most of the crew getting out (rather upsetting footage however); so nothing special. As you said it could have been anything, iirc the side armour of the panther wasnt exepcially tough in comparison to the frontal sections.