Air Action in event of seaborne invasion of UK

[Gooner1]

So you're saying that a counterattack that requires ....

No, I am saying your point does not "illustrates quite adequately some of the issues that would have prevented "immediate" counterattack." You might as well have used 21st Army Tank Brigade stuck in Yorkshire!

"Yes, I'll be using war gases if the use of them is in agreement with the limitations that have already been set upon me."

"Good God man! Have you taken leave of your senses! We've not even discussed this with the Minster or the RAF yet!"

Depending on what freedoms of action had already been established for him prior to the landings.

Brook commanded the Army in GB, excepting AA Command.

General Officers Commanding don't run for approaval of every single action they take.

Not a matter of approval (although it might be thought that he'd want that ) but of informing his superiors.

As we have seen from his own words, the prospect of using gas had already been taken into account in his planning.

Have we? I can only remember the post-war addition to his diary.

That "vast superiority" in conventional arms was scattered up and down the country; after the initial landings, there would be x-amount that would have to be GOT to South-East England by rail and by road - rail and road links that approaching the coast would be increasingly interdicted by the LW.

And that's not taking into account a similar mistake to Freyberg's in 1941 being made - when he retained half his force for an amphibious invasion ELSEWHERE that never came....and by the time he would have been free to re-deploy them....his battle had been fought and lost...

You really haven't got a clue.

[phylo_roadking]

No, I am saying your point does not "illustrates quite adequately some of the issues that would have prevented "immediate" counterattack." You might as well have used 21st Army Tank Brigade stuck in Yorkshire!

True - but I'm not aware of a thread in AHF as comprehensively discussing the counterattack plans of 21st Army tank brigade as the two we have detailing the prospective movements and issues of 2 NZEF/MILFORCE.

"Yes, I'll be using war gases if the use of them is in agreement with the limitations that have already been set upon me."

"Good God man! Have you taken leave of your senses! We've not even discussed this with the Minster or the RAF yet!"

Er....yes they had; the War Cabinet had approved the change in use protocols AND the Minister of Defence had been the one to initiate that change AND request Ismay begin planning the defensive ue of gas.

Depending on what freedoms of action had already been established for him prior to the landings.

Brook commanded the Army in GB, excepting AA Command.

Which does I believe mean the Cw Companies, RE would have been under his command.

And by the way, it's BrookE.

Not a matter of approval (although it might be thought that he'd want that ) but of informing his superiors

Which is a call lasting how many minutes to CIGS...it's CIGS who would have cascaded the information upwards.

Have we? I can only remember the post-war addition to his diary.

They are still his words.

You really haven't got a clue.

In relation to what? Freyberg's mistake? See Crete:The Battle And The Resistance by Beevor, Crete: The Lost Battle by MacDonald...

Both of which are, incidently, excellent comendiums of multiple examples of how "immediate" counterattacks weren't...also see Alan Clark, The Fall of Crete.

[Andy H]

Temp lock

[Andy H]

Reads like we have all go this wrong. Banquet were not beginners in Tiger Moths but more advanced trainees

Trainees - and their aircraft - come in ALL shapes and sizes and levels of training

"Banquet Evanton" was the Harrows etc. of No.8 Air Gunnery School at RAF Evanton

Hi Phylo

No 8 Air Gunners School (AGS) wasnt formed till June 194.
It was formed from No 8 Bombing & Gunnery School (BGS) which was indeed based at Evanton, eventually disbanded August 26th 1944.
It operated Anson, Botha, Lysander, Martinet, Whitley and Battle aircraft.

Source: Aeronautica No2 1981

Regards

Andy H

[Andy H]

Second is the plan to fit tank-busting cannon to Lysanders

Hi Phylo

A prototype K6127 was flown with a fitted 20mm cannon. The install wasnt clean looking as you'd expect, with the ammo drums causing
significant drag, so much so that the Lysander lost 12mph off its top speed. The plane was cited for anti-invasion barge and AT-TK work, though
the latter would be hampered by the fact that there was no AP on hand.

Trials were undertaken at AFDU Northolt and then for service trials with 110Sqn RCAF. After this it was decided that all Lysander Sqns in the UK
(bar two) would have half their initial equipment fitted with cannon by the end of 1940.

A prototype was also fitted with a tandem wing and a Fraser-Nash 4 gun turret, as a possible anti-invasion use, straffing German troops. Thankfully never went beyond the prototype.

Source: Aeronautica No3 1982 and No1 1985

Regards

Andy H

[phylo_roadking]

No 8 Air Gunners School (AGS) wasnt formed till June 194.
It was formed from No 8 Bombing & Gunnery School (BGS) which was indeed based at Evanton, eventually disbanded August 26th 1944.
It operated Anson, Botha, Lysander, Martinet, Whitley and Battle aircraft.

Source: Aeronautica No2 1981

..and Harrows. A excerpt from the flying log of one 619449 LAC Moore CP...

CYRIL'S FLYING LOG - No 8 Air Gunnery Squadron RAF Evanton

4th August 1941
08.30hrs took off in a Harrow K6966 flown by Sgt Korepta. Posted Air Gunner, Sea marker Target Practice 200 Rounds Fired, Flying time 50 minutes

7th August 1941
15.15hrs took off in a Harrow K6966 flown by Sgt Mirenczvk. Posted Air Gunner, Beam Target Practice 200 Rounds Fired, Flying time1 Hour

11th August 1941
10.50hrs took off in a Botha L6147 flown by Flight Officer Eban-Ritter. Posted Air Gunner, R/S DNCO, Flying time1 Hour

11th August 1941
15.05hrs took off in a Botha L6147 flown by Pilot Officer Addy. Posted Air Gunner, R/S 100 Rounds Fired, Flying time1 Hour 5 Minutes

11th August 1941
19.20hrs took off in a Botha L6147 flown by Pilot Officer Addy. Posted Air Gunner, R/S DNCO, Flying time1 Hour

14th August 1941
18.30hrs took off in a Harrow K6964 flown by Sgt Piwke. Posted Air Gunner, Beam Target Practice 200 Rounds Fired, Flying time1 Hour 40 Minutes

15th August 1941
10.00hrs took off in a Botha L6147 flown by Sgt Eckert. Posted Air Gunner, Crossover Target Practice 200 Rounds Fired, Flying time1 Hour

15th August 1941
12.40hrs took off in a Botha L6436 flown by Sgt Westwood. Posted Air Gunner, Crossover Target Practice 200 Rounds Fired, Flying time1 Hour 10 minutes

15th August 1941
16.00hrs took off in a Harrow K6964 flown by Flight Sgt Niemekld. Posted Air Gunner, Beam Tracer Practice 200 Rounds Fired, Flying time1 Hour 25 minutes

20th August 1941
10.00hrs took off in a Botha L6435 flown by Sgt Westwood. Posted Air Gunner, R/S 100 Rounds Fired, Flying time 1 Hour

20th August 1941
16.40hrs took off in a Botha L6411 flown by Pilot Officer Konarzewski. Posted Air Gunner, Crossover Target Practice 200 Rounds Fired, Flying time 150 minutes.

I'm assuming that like other anti-invasion preparations Op BANQUET was kept updated until deemed unnecessary. Thus newer schools, training establishments etc would be added over time...

[phylo_roadking]

A prototype was also fitted with a tandem wing and a Fraser-Nash 4 gun turret, as a possible anti-invasion use, straffing German troops. Thankfully never went beyond the prototype.

I thought this conversion - more a complete rebuild! - was to create a flying testbed for the rear turret fitment for the Lancaster? Interesting though...

[Knouterer]

In case of invasion, the aircraft of reserve and training units would be sent into battle in stages, under a plan known as “Operation Banquet”. The first stage would be the integration of as many as possible of the six hundred or so Whitleys, Wellingtons, Hampdens, Blenheims, Battles, Ansons and ancient Herefords of No. 6 and No. 7 Bomber (Training) Groups into the operational striking force (Groups 1 to 5) of Bomber Command. Many of these aircraft would lack defensive armament and other important equipment. The intention was that initially one or two flights would be attached to each operational squadron, and more later on to replace losses. Next, the same would happen to a good part of the Lysanders of No. 22 Group, that is, those that were not already carrying out tactical reconnaissance and close support for the ground forces. If the situation required it, the next stages would be “Banquet Training” and “Banquet Alert” when aircraft of Training Command and training units of the Fleet Air Arm, manned by instructors plus those students who had reached "a reasonably satisfactory standard of training”, would be thrown in. Finally, as a last desperate measure, “Banquet Light”, 350 Tiger Moths and other light aircraft of the Elementary Flight Training Schools, flown by student pilots and fitted with racks for eight 20 lb bombs, would take off to meet their fate.