No, I'm not basing a "judgment call" on anything like that. Think for a moment. 127-140 A.11 built, with the last three completed in June. 97 were lost in France. 27 were assigned to 8 RTR. At least 2 were sent to Egypt and eventually written off there. What happened to the remaining 1-14?phylo_roadking wrote:Well, if you're going to base the judgement call on those two items only - it's really correct for Egypt only. Especially now that we know courtesy of Nuno that 8RTR had MkIs in service through the summer of 1940.
Regarding the comment - it's most commonly referenced to George Forty's Tanks of World War I and II
Do you mean the 1995 Osprey World War II Tanks? I believe Fletcher's reference predates it by at least a year.
Okay. That might explain it. I suspect, given the above, the possibly "1" remaining was the prototype. In any case, if there was as many as "14" they were not recorded with operational units, so were either in training or test/development establishments.IIRC the contract cards at Bovington record production rather than acceptance; but I'll email them and check that.
If we take the 345 Valentine and 392 A.12 completed to the end of 1940 and subtract them from Postan's 878, we get 141, which is even more confusing...
Yeah...except the thumbnail calculation actually includes known losses and known availability with units as of 15 September 1940, but does not resolve if there were 1-14 remaining after that....though only by one compared to the 140 contract-card number; which, using a secondary course and working backwards, is better than most thumbnail calculations!
Then it would have been easier for my understanding if you had referred to Newbold rather than Postan as you did. BTW, "WHEN you find it again"? The link was posted by Nuno yesterday...did you lose it again? And he is quite clear on the numbers. 27 A.11 with 8 RTR.I was basing my comment on the material in Newbold, not figures in Postan. When I find it again I'll post up what he says.
A couple of other notes of interest to the subject:
1) I do not recall from the records of BFME if they recorded the number of A.11 at any time. Unfortunately those records are now locked away at the former offices of TDI and I no longer have ready access to them.
2) I had recalled that the COMPASS shipment included 54 I Tanks; Newbold indicates it was 50 A.12, which may be correct. Other sources mention 48 though, which could still mean that the other 2 were the A.11 sent to Egypt. Again, the records of the MGRAC BFME would be helpful...if I could get to them easily again.
Yes, indeed, but they weren't "remnants thereof after France" any more than those of 7 RTR were. The cruisers were the 52 with 2 RTR from 3rd Armoured Brigade of 1st Armoured Division. The lights were the 52 with 3rd KOH from 2nd Armoured Division. They three regiments departed OOA 20 August. There still remained in the UK, as of the 27 August, 295 tracked and 60 wheeled light tanks, 138 cruiser tanks, and 27 A.11, 125 A.12, and 33 Valentines assigned to units, increasing to 306 tracked and 64 wheeled light tanks, 154 cruiser tanks, and 27 A.11, 132 A.12, and 65 Valentines assigned to units as of 15 September, and 318 tracked and 64 wheeled light tanks, 179 cruiser tanks, and 27 A.11, 131 A.12, and 107 Valentines assigned to units as of 29 September. That of course doesn't include the 400-odd tanks at any one time produced, but not issued, and obsolescent/obsolete types in training establishments and/or depots.Indeed they weren't; there were the various cruisers....or remnants thereof after France. I'll have to check (as above) but IIRC Newbold details crusiers being sent to the Delta as well.
And of course Knouterer cleared that up from the 8 RTR War Diary.IIRC standard British Army convoy speed in the period was actually 15 mph (I think I opened a thread on that question literally years ago on here...?)...which was the commonly-referenced road speed for the MkII. You regard the 8 mph figure as a coincidence, I regard it as too much of a coincidence.
Now that Nuno has posted and confirmed that there were indeed Matilda Is in 8RTR hands as of the date in question...it it should be checkable by their war diary for the period.